| Re: |
TMk, the sensing is partly impulse to control. Partly, it is awareness of the need to redirect our attention. One reason I distrust myself in this aspect is along the lines of Neil's thoughts, other reasons are knowing my own inclinations to hold the floor, and yet another is that this is still such a new way to us that I am afraid to pollute the waters, so to speak.
It is a valid question you ask. And, I am weighing and praying not to be hesitant to obey God by silence or by speech.
| 2014/9/26 13:53||Profile|
| Re: |
I agree with what you both are saying. It seems our way of "doing church" is so engrained in us that it takes radical steps to avoid falling into the same old thing.
It seems likely though that a leader of some sort would likely rise to the top by default. I am not sure how this could be prevented. If the person is a true servant leader it might work out. "True" is the operative word.
| 2014/9/26 14:27||Profile|
| Re: |
The kind of meetings that Neil is talking about and brother Bartelman, terrifies men. The way we do church is so ingrained into the phyche of men over the centuries that such meetings now seem so radical. Fear is typically the order of the day, fear and often times a need to control. As good as many of the well known good preachers of the day are, I often wonder just how they would do in meetings where they did not have the preeminence...........bro Frank
| 2014/9/26 15:10|
| Re: What would Remnant ecclesiology "look" like?|
Quote: how would a Remnant gathering "look"?
Well I think a 'plain humble storefront' is not going to big enough, however I do think that any thought of 'denominationalism' should be trodden on the under foot, but denominations will hold on and attack the 'remnant' when they appear.
I think we must clear our mind of small groups of people, one or two hidden away and house groups, it's fine for just now, but we must dream and plan far bigger. We must prepare for people, we must be people minded, people orientated, we must take God to the people.
People - gone will be the day of the one man band, the pastor that controls all that goes on in the church. The Holy Spirit must be given full rein to work through his people. Which relates back to the above people must go to people.
Here is my vision, All of Gods people, moving in all of Gods power, reaping all of Gods harvest, in all of God's world..
| 2014/9/26 15:19||Profile|
| Re: |
Since we are using the word remnant, below is an article I wrote to explain what the word meant to . It is a little long, but it may be of some use to some who have pondered what is meant in these days by that term...........bro Frank
I would like to clarify for some just what I believe to be God’s remnant children. To use any word over and over again it can begin to take on a life of its own and that can happen with the word remnant. A remnant child of God is simply someone who genuinely knows Jesus, someone who has been truly converted. Now, why the distinction, why even use any other name rather than simply ” Christian?” Well, I am certainly not stuck on the name, to me it is more of an adjective that a noun. It simply describes what Jesus was talking about when He says ” many are called , but few are chosen.”(Matt 22:14) Now, just as that was true when Jesus spoke it then, it is equally true now. The context of that scripture comes from the previous chapter when Jesus showed , though parable, that men would not give to God what was rightfully His, instead they rejected and killed His son. Now in chapter 22 Jesus uses another illustration , this time a wedding, which people are too busy to come to.
So, Jesus establishes that the invitation is there before men to give to God what is His, to come when invited, but by and large they reject this, and only a relatively small number accept. This same invitation exists today. Now, let us look at the name Christian. In a western world that by and large calls itself Christian by name and by birth, then we have to have a further distinction because we know that simply being born into a ” Christian,’ household does not make one a Christian. Neither does calling one-self a Christian make that person a Christian. There needs of course, to be a genuine conversion, a new creature in Christ, a new birth actually and not merely theologically and of course there are marks of this new birth. Now, C.S.Lewis, more than half a century ago, wrote about the fact that the term ” Christian,’ had lost it’s meaning. He used the word ” Gentleman, to illustrate what he meant.
More than three-hundred years ago, in England, the term ” Gentleman,” meant that one was a landowner. If you did not own land, you were not a Gentleman. Now, over the following decades and centuries, whether men owned land or not, they began to call themselves Gentlemen, thus emptying the actual meaning of the word. Lewis was arguing that this was exactly what has happened to the word ” Christian.” I agree entirely with Lewis and of course, things have not improved in the last 50 or so years. And so the definition of the word remnant is , as a noun, ” a small remaining quantity of something.” As an adjective ” remaining.” Websters defines the word to mean ” a small surviving group.” Now, if 7000 did not bow the knee to Baal and there was roughly a population of seven million in that day, that means that for every one thousand people, only one had not bowed the knee to Baal.
If we extrapolated that number to today, that would mean there were just over three million in the USA who had not bowed their knees to the gods of today. I am not suggesting such a low number, I personally think it is much higher than that, but you get the idea. And so, as we move on down through the centuries from Pentecost, we begin to see a religious kingdom built by men who believed they were doing the work of God, for the most part this kingdom was the kingdom of Catholicism. This is what I would call ‘ Christendom.” The world of Christendom is everything that calls itself Christian. Yet, only a relatively small number stood against the heretical teachings of the Catholic church down through the ages. We now know them as martyrs, but in their day they were known as heretics by Christendom.
You can read about these people in many different publications, Foxes Book of Martyrs is an excellent resource as is ” The Pilgrim Church.” And so, in all of those ages, including the dark ages, God had a witness, God had His Church and the gates of hell could not prevail against it, even although they came at it with all of Hell’s fury. Now, as it always was then so it is today. Christendom is by and large made up of religious people who have not been genuinely born again. And just as there is marks of those who have been born again, obviously those who have not will have their own marks, the marks of the world. And of course we see that in divorce rates and so on that are no different, and in some cases higher than the world. And so, while there are baby Christians and mature Christians and weaker Christians and everything in between in genuine Christianity, there is also to be found the genuine transformation.
Well, if this has always been the case and today is just the same really as it has always been, then why is there any urgency in the genuine Church? Well, I believe it is because of the prophetic calendar. And by that I mean that so many in God’s Body believe that the return of the Lord is coming soon, perhaps even in our own lifetime. Now one may argue that Christians have always thought that. I would argue that without the return of Israel and other prophecies then the prophetic clock could never really have begun to come close to the time we are now approaching. And what time is that? Well, since I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, nor do I believe in dominionism, then I believe that the birth pangs have begun and there is a count-down to the time of severe persecution. A persecution so bad that if the Lord did not shorten those days then there would simply be no genuine Christians left alive prior to the return of Jesus. Now with persecution I will argue that the Lord will pour out His Spirit on His people in order for them to be equipped to handle such worldwide persecution.
And because the persecution will be so severe, then the Spirit will be poured out as has never been seen before, in essence, the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea because persecution will be worldwide. Now, this takes us back to the remnant children, simply the genuinely converted. As the denominations and churches continue their slide into compromise, it will become increasingly difficult for genuine believers to stay where they are. And, when you add to that scenario the removing of God’s presence from these churches, it will simply become intolerable for genuine Christians to stay in these places and they will begin to come out, and have been now for quite some-time. As the light begins to be removed from these churches by the removal of the light-bearers, the genuine Christians, then the denominations and dead churches will more and more identify with the world and with the State. This will set them up to become part of a World church and at the same time set them up to eventually become the deadliest enemies of the genuine Christian who cannot and will not stand by and be part of an every sliding, ever darkening compromising establishment.
Yet, the genuine Christian has always loved his genuine brothers and sisters and loves to fellowship with like-minded passionate Spirit filled believers. And so, they will find each other and as the end of ages come, they will comfort and encourage one another. Brothers and sisters, we are living in these times right now. Now it may be the beginning of the process, but the process , the great falling away is already well under way and is setting the stage for what is to come. Our life time? Very possibly. Our children or grandchildren’s life-time? Almost certainly. Yet saints, even if it were 100 year off ( which I do not believe) God would already be preparing His children for the end of the age. Now, more than ever, we must be able to hear that small still voice and know the Word of God. Now, more than ever, we must cherish the genuine presence of God in the midst of so much counterfeit. Stay close to the Lord and look for His lead and follow His directions. Hold the things of this world loosely ( as we should always do anyway) and trust in Him and lean not on our own understanding.
| 2014/9/26 18:48|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| Re: |
What would Remnant ecclesiology "look" like?
We would change the question to: What HAS Remnant ecclesiology "looked" like?
There are many examples of groups of saints throughout the 2000 years of the history of Church when in times where Christianity became popular and compromised that they assembled in various ways to preserve the true testimony of what the church is. One book that chronicles many of these groups is the wonderful volume: The Pilgrim Church, it can be read free as a PDF here: http://thejesusway.info/pdf/PilgrimChurch/PilgrimChurchVer-0200-beta.pdf
My suggestion for the re-wording of the question is that we can see how God's people have assembled over the 2000 years of the Church and that this always included strong leadership. Whether you take the Quakers who in their meetings had open sharing yet as the movement it was strongly organized at times. Moravians, Waldensians, Paulicians, and many more had strong leadership in their movements.
What does it look like if God assembled a movement of "remnant" believers in North America right now? The current trend is anti-leadership and anti-structure because of hurts in many lives of believers. This I believe is an over-reaction. God will need to bring a great baptism of His Spirit and love to see many brethren work together for the cause of His Name.
Either way God always has a testimony and some movement of brethren who decide to humble themselves under the mighty hand of God and He lifts them up because they are seeking the glory of God alone. I do have hope and belief that God will allow many more groupings of believers to happen before the coming of the Lord that He can have a great testimony in the earth again of a Church where He is Head.
Lastly, my humble advice to brethren is to not try and re-do church or dismantle everything that has been Church, but look to godly examples of fellowships over the 2000 years of remnant history, look to the book of Acts and follow the wisdom of brethren where we have seen the Spirit of God come upon those wineskins in their day.
God is always doing a New Thing but that does not mean the new wineskin of our day for the remnant will be very different from others. The Church will always be the Church, we must always look to the Scriptures to see what we are to do.
All of Gods people, moving in all of Gods power, reaping all of Gods harvest, in all of God's world..
Amen brother that reminds me of the Moravian movement in that when they cast lots for who was the next missionary to forsake (literally) all, that ALL names where in the basket, there were no elites all (if true believers and part of the assembly) where considered qualified missionaries.
Again this does not negate the need for leadership and strong giftings in the body of Christ, we must not negate this, though the work of the pastor, prophet, preacher is to equip the rest of the body of Christ to DO the work of the ministry.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2014/9/26 19:05||Profile|
| Re: |
God moves in the here and the now and in each and every age God's remnant people have reacted to the surroundings that they have found themselves. Sometime they had to seperate themselves. Always they had to speak the Truth in love without fear or favor of men. Always they were rejected by the organised church of the day. You cant " re-do," church because the Church is God's people. It simply is. And it is where two or three are gathered together.
It is of some interest to look back and see how faithful saints down through the ages have gathered as there are principals that have never changed, the greatest one of all is that Jesus is preeminent in meetings and His Holy Spirit leads. ........bro Frank
| 2014/9/26 22:55|
| Re: |
This thread speaks to me on such a deep level. I have been screaming on the inside for more of God every single Sunday I have sat through "regular church" (Four songs, announcements, children's feature, a solo, offerings, sermon with the pastor checking his watch in order not to go overtime because some members don't like that.)
Every time my spirit was screaming: This can not be IT!!
Then we moved and went to a different church. It was more exciting, until I realised (very quickly) that the work of the Holy Spirit had been replaced by entertainment. And people didn't notice!!
So yes,yes, to all of your suggestions for church, Neil. I have two things I wanted to contribute to your original question:
1. No government registration as a charity, I believe it brings corruption into the body and it would also require to organize the group according to the government's standards. Accountability for the group of believers is to God alone, while still respecting the law of the land because scripture teaches us to do so. And never ever does the body go into debt and allow a secular institution to have a say over what is God's. When a need arises it is made known and prayed about, the group trusts God to provide for the needs presented to him, and everyone contributes as the Holy Spirit prompts.
2. My number two point has been presented more beautifully in the testimony you posted:
The services ran almost continuously. Seeking souls could be found under the power almost any hour, night and day. The place was never closed nor empty. The people came to meet God. He was always there. Hence a continuous meeting. The meeting did not depend on the human leader. God’s presences become more and more wonderful
Years ago I felt prompted to go to the church to pray at odd times during the week. I did this for a year. At one point the Lord unfolded a vision for me of what could be if others would start to do the same thing. It very much looked like the description above, an unofficial, unregulated and spontaneous prayer meetings, led by the Holy Spirit. The activity at the church would not go unnoticed in the small community. People would start walking in from the streets, asking and receiving prayer for their needs. The power of God would be in the prayers and people would be coming to the Lord with repentance and joy.
My heart will ache to see this for the rest of this earthly life.
| 2014/9/27 1:43||Profile|
| beloved SolaVeritas|
My heart will ache to see this for the rest of this earthly life.
mine too, that's why I was led to start this thread...the ache was too acute. Jesus DID say, "Whatever you ask for, in My Name...".
Sola, (I wish I knew your name) you have no idea how you bolstered my spirit this very morning. Not because you "agreed" with me, per se, but because I know there is one OTHER soul out there, that has this heart ache, that there HAS TO BE MORE in this Most Holy Faith.
Last night, RIGHT before I went to bed, I read some of the new posts, and while I love unabashedly the saints that wrote them, I felt that what I was trying to say...my burden is either misunderstood, or others have different takes on ecclesiology.
so this morning, I'm up at 4:30, as like you probably, i'm half awake...coffee, listen to NOAA weather, etc...all the while i'm pondering this subject, talking to myself, Talking to Jesus....I found extensive notes I made in 2007, called "The Order of Service"...which was a rough draft of some of the elements, what I posed before...read them.
Now, I've been in Isaiah's prophecy, just passed that mountaintop of Isaiah 58..took my ESV study Bible out, to go BACK into Acts, so that I could reason with my brother Greg and others.
Now what you quoted as you probably know is Frank Bartleman's early accounts of the Azusa Street Revival, said book now called "Azusa Street". Even the CALLING of what went on, in Los Angeles, circa April 1906 a revival, is a huge bone of contention among followers of Jesus.....even to this day....But when I read that section of his account that I posted, my heart soars, I adore dear Frank B.....even he testified that the Azusa Street work went off the rails, when they (later) put a sign up, "Apostolic Faith Mission".....as if we need yet another "denomination"...he later found a former deserted "German Lutheran" church that he prayed for at 8th and Maple in LA.....this Work was referred to by him soley as "8th and Maple".
Forgive me, i'm wandering (probably because it now dawn and I have SO MUCH dry cured firewood, I must bucket up and stack on this porch, and I have AT least 2 to 3 days of unusually clear dry warm weather, and my body aint what it was at 25)
Scripturally, here's the passage that led me in this direction:
"What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up".
1 Cor 14:26
this was in 2003, and at the same time i'm reading Bartleman's account.
the second thing I want to say, ...PLEASE, don't let this thread go, humanly, I'm all alone up here, county the size of Manhattan but with 20,000 people and dozens and dozens of United Methodist, Lutheran ....a "oneness" penteecostal, and AoG Pentecostal, tons of roman churches....been to so many, and most times I leave, i'm crushed....I don't go with PREjudgement, I go to meet with the Lord, and I find the Spirit has been quenched, even so I write a letter to the pastor, a few times, suggesting a weekly prayer meeting, I never got a reply from any of these letters.
in all cases, MOST of the congregants have grey hair, which is fine, but the youth of district? their "church" is called Budweiser, and their "god", the green bay packers....heaven forbid we get in the way of that "worship"!
...and they all have a knowledge of Jesus, they all have a knowledge of God....very much like the Hebrides was in the late 40's...at least that's the way I feel...and now meth is starting to make its way into this county, along with heroin. Don't get me wrong, its like the mythical "Shire" in its physical beauty, and everybodies "Wisconsin Nice", we all greet one another outside this store or that store, passing cars wave to each other. (its an index finger up, as a "hi)
So lets stay together on this, Frank, you too, and any others that feel a burden to GO BACK to Acts, Jesus as Pastor, and every saint a minister AND servant, where I love and esteem you MORE than myself.
May your day be richly blessed in the Peace and Love of Messiah Jesus, neil
| 2014/9/27 8:38|
| Re: Jimmy H |
I feel terrible about our dialogue yesterday, please forgive me, I have NO excuse, I felt you were judging me, and hence reacted not nice. if we disagree, we disagree, so be it, but i'd rather love you with God's love instead....so if you want to comment, whatever you want to comment, please do so...i'm sorry...truly am Jimmy, in Jesus love, neil
| 2014/9/27 8:48|