Whittier CA USA
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Amen Man0fG0d. I think especially these two scriptures which you pointed out make it very clear:
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM."-Rom.5:9
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."-1Thess.1:10
According to those verses, what, or Who's wrath are we saved from?
"And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"-Revelation 6:17
| 2014/9/17 22:31||Profile|
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HE SAVED US FROM HIM SELF
FOR HIM SELF
BY HIM SELF
| 2014/9/18 1:38||Profile|
| 2014/9/18 2:04||Profile|
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How is it that we have created two DIFFERENT God’s – one that is angry and vengeful, the other that is appeasing and forgiving?
What about the OT verses portraying God’s mercy (ex Jonah 4:2)
What about the NT Jesus with a two edged sword in his mouth (Rev. 1:16; 2:17)
The theological position described in this thread has come under scrutiny, and I think for a good reason. It leaves out too many scriptures: ex how Christ’s death AND resurrection gives us new life through his Spirit. It also makes the problem more on God’s side than ours.
What makes us acceptable to God is not merely that sufficient punishment was enacted on our behalf, but that IN HIM, we are new creatures living under a new rule and domain: the kingdom of God.
The effects of weak theology as discussed here becomes evident in the lives of God’s people: The focus is on extrapolating evil (or perceived evil). And insufficient focus is ascribed to the nurture of the gifts of the Spirit – making mature, complete/”perfect” Christians.
In other words our Christianity becomes more about what’s bad then what’s good. Legalism is one of the offshoots: Make lots of rules to suppress the bad; but little effort is made to nurture forgiveness, mercy, grace, etc. And so you see a lot of immaturity among the people of God. .. leading to more rules.... more punishment.... more divisiveness.... more distrust, more controlling behaviors, more loneliness, depression.... suicide....
Good theology produces and enhances LIFE.
Bad theology ultimately is the path of DEATH.
Why should we doubt that Christ himself resonated with both the wrath and mercy of God – even on the cross?
| 2014/9/18 10:55||Profile|
| Re: Getting it|
Well spoken, Diane!
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Yes He will. But He is a judge! He is not free to do things contrary to His law, and His love is not just gooey affection. He desires the highest and best for all His creation, but He is devoted to one thing- His Son! As we join ourselves to the Son, He is devoted to us!
People think that in His sovereignty God can do anything He wishes. Nothing could be further from the truth. In His great love He sent His Son to purchase sinners from the curse they put themselves under! He is not to blame, we are!
One might hopefully begin to see how God's character is besmirched by the doctrine of the inborn sinful nature. This makes God responsible for the curse on men, and obligates Him to fix it. It also obligates Him to fix all men, and we can so clearly see that not all men are fixed. Non-believers have a real problem with seeing a loving God because of that.
When men see that they alone are responsible for their sin, they will be in a position to recognize the sweet love of a saving God. But as long as they hear the error that God is responsible for their condition, they will resist Him.
Romans 1:18 "...they suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
The truth is that Jesus and the Father are in complete accord. "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." They are of one Holy Spirit lovingly solving the deadly problem of human rebellion.
| 2014/9/18 11:29||Profile|
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2 Cor 5:19-God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Jesus came to reconcile us back to God. He did not come to rescue from God. The sentense is not full. We can say that Jesus came to resuce us from God's wrath.
| 2014/9/19 3:28||Profile|
| Re: Did Jesus rescue us from God?|
TMK: I think I would have to say absolutely not in the way that you stated it, although I do understand exactly what you are saying. I guess if you had worded it this way, "...what Jesus did on the cross was to rescue us from God's wrath", then I would agree totally.
Although God has chosen to manifest Himself as three, He is still one, hence the term triune. There is not difference of character or purpose in the three manifestations, although there is a difference in manifestation and activity.
God is just and holy, and God is love. These characteristics taken together demand justice and judgment. Our sin subjected us to that justice and judgment. Christ's sacrifice subjected Him to our judgment, freeing us from the penalty demanded by justice. He saved us from rightly deserved judgment.
I am in agreement with what some of the other posters have said. We have misunderstood and twisted the message of the gospel sometimes to the point that we almost paint God and Jesus as enemies who fought it out over what would happen to man, or at least we have given the idea that they are somehow different in essence.
| 2014/9/20 13:35||Profile|
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To think about:
Would Jesus not been more accurate in putting it this way:
Matt. 26:28 "This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for the wrath of God.”
...he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Is the Son not included in "God" in this situation?
| 2014/9/25 9:56||Profile|
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Could it be that human sin (accumulated) itself was absorbed in Christ (the "Stumbling Stone ... Scapegoat)?
| 2014/9/25 10:47||Profile|
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I want to clarify something in love and with a suspicion of my own self that I misunderstood you. Please be patient with me.
Are you suggesting that God is not one God in three persons when you say He is one God in three manifestations? That is what T.D. Jakes said a couple of years ago as a sort of public coming out of Oneness Pentecostalism that, as I understood him, was not so much a departure from OP as it was a dodge of the question about his OP theology. Whereas Jakes expressly rejected the word "persons" in that dialogue, I am hopeful that you are not.
| 2014/9/25 11:41||Profile|