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Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: KingJimmy is a wise man!

Any doctrine whose primary appeal is to the flesh of man is to me highly suspect. The pre-trib rapture has that written all over it. Paul declares that the Hope of Glory is a revealed mystery, and the mystery is "Christ in you!"

Apparently that continues to be a mystery to much of the church even though he let the cat out of the bag nearly 2000 years ago!

And Jesus actually demonstrated "rapture" in the presence of Peter, James, and John when He was transfigured before them on the mountain. For a few minutes there He wore the resurrected body. At that point He was the only human qualified to wear it, and knowing this He took it off so that He could purchase one for me... and you!

What He had was life, eternal, not corrupt or subject to death, and not needing to fly away in the sky for any reason. "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, ye may be also." And that was what the "place" looked like!

Nope. We want dinner in the clouds and a mansion in a gated community. Flesh dies so, so hard!


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Tom Cameron

 2014/10/15 1:38Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1507


 Re:

Hi KingJimmy,
I am not confused at all about how typology works.Jesus made clearly known that John the Baptist was Elijah and John the Baptist made clearly known that he himself was "a friend of the Bridegroom".So when you look at anything to do with the Bridegroom coming for his Bride you have to take Johns words into account.The mistake John made was that he thought Jesus's First and Second coming were the same and he squashed all the prophesys into the first coming and wondered why they werent all being fullfilled.
I am not trying to prove merely from Type but Jesus himself said that John was Elijah if you care to accept it.In effect he was saying John was a type of Elijah the thisbite.He did the exact same work over the same timescale.
The work of Elijah is always to restore.
Few people know that Pentecost for instance could not have happened without Elijah.Ironically the problem with Pentecostal types(of which i am one)is that they havent got a clue about Pentecost!!
Trying to understand the endtimes without understanding Elijah is folly.
Dont let the reason be - you dont want to study it just in case it changes how you look at it.
Yours Staff

 2014/10/15 7:29Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1507


 Re:

Hi Psalm,
I guess what I am saying that Jesus said Elijah will be sent before his Second Coming and ask the questions
what will his work be?What will the end product be?
The work will be restoration and the end product consummation.
I want people to study Elijah seriously so that they will have a real understanding about what is going to happen and that understanding will help them be more positive about the future.For isntance as i said few people know that without Elijah that Pentecost would not have happened,
Yours Staff

 2014/10/15 7:39Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1507


 Re:

Hi Sidewalk,
This statement is just glorified name calling
Yours staff

Any doctrine whose primary appeal is to the flesh of man is to me highly suspect. The pre-trib rapture has that written all over it. Paul declares that the Hope of Glory is a revealed mystery, and the mystery is "Christ in you!"

 2014/10/15 7:41Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

The Return of Christ and the Resurrection of the Dead
------------------------------------------------------

1 Thes 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

-------------------------

I picked this passage about the Second Coming of Christ because it is perhaps the most straight forward passage of Scripture on the topic, and because it is also one of the most popular.

Whether or not you carefully or superficially look at this passage of Scripture, you will notice that it says nothing whatsoever about any notion of a pre-tribulational rapture.

First, you'll notice the entire absence of the idea of a tribulation. Therefore, somehow reading this passage as speaking to a pre-tribulational rapture is entirely missing from the text. You may have other texts you believe speak to a pre-tribulational rapture... which is fine. But this passage of Scripture mentions nothing about a tribulation, so please don't appeal to it as such.

Rather, it's a word of comfort written to believers who are grieving over deceased loved one's in the Lord. Paul tells these group of believers that they need not grieve and worry themselves to death, they have a fantastic and blessed hope.

What we experience when we die is likened unto a "sleep." While sleeping, we wait to be awakened from our slumber. And this, Paul tells us, will be done when the world's greatest alarm clock goes off.

One day, we are told that "the Lord Himself will descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God" (v. 16) and Jesus Christ Himself is going to awaken the dead even as "He died and rose again." (v. 14).

When Jesus Christ "descends from heaven" (v. 16) at "the coming of our Lord" (v. 15), then "the dead in Christ will rise first" (v. 16) And those who are alive at this grand and glorious event, will be caught up to "meet" the Lord in the air, and God will "bring with Him" those who were sleeping (v. 14), and "so we shall always be with the Lord." (v. 17)

I'm sorry, but if you are reading into this passage a mysterious whisking away of the saints to some place over yonder, and taking them back to heaven, prior to the tribulation, you are reading something into the text that the text never says. To be frank... you are making something up.

Rather, the text says that the Lord is "coming," and as He "descends" He will bodily "raise" the dead first, even as He was raised, and then the rest of us who are alive will be "caught up" to "meet" the Lord in the air, as He is coming.

This, by the way, corresponds to the ancient practice of when kings came to a city, their citizens would go outside the city to greet and welcome their king.


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Jimmy H

 2014/10/15 8:07Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:
I am not trying to prove merely from Type but Jesus himself said that John was Elijah if you care to accept it.In effect he was saying John was a type of Elijah the thisbite.He did the exact same work over the same timescale.



John is indeed a type of Elijah, this is well established. But this is not the same as saying that Elijah's life and ministry is somehow a type of the Second Coming and a pre-tribulational rapture. That, the Bible does not say.

I would kindly ask you to point out how and show how the scheme of Elijah's life and ministry corresponds to the death, resurrection, and second coming of Christ, and a pre-tribulational rapture. So far all you have done is made vague and confusing illusions and references, that seem to have nothing to do with eachother whatseover.

I'm fairly well versed in the teachings of the Bible, and I have a fairly solid grasp of Elijah's life and ministry. You keep telling me to study these things out, but frankly, with what you have said, I have no clue as to where to begin. Please show me how x corresponds to y.

So far, the more we talk about it, the more I get confused with what you are saying, and frankly, the more I become suspect that you, while being a perfectly nice individual, I am starting to believe that you don't have something more concrete to say. It's like you've cherry picked a few scattered references and concepts, and are attempting to mix oil and vinegar together. It just doesn't seem to be working.

Perhaps you might want to move onto something more "clear" and straight forward and simple to understand, instead of trying to peg a doctrine to a fuzzy typological reference that I'm just not getting. Show me some direct verses, and show me how the wording of those verses support the direct idea of a pre-tribulational rapture.

That's all I'd really like to ask at the end of the day. Especially since I used to hold to such a view.


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Jimmy H

 2014/10/15 8:28Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Isn't it interesting that those same folks have a mysterious force field preventing them from exploring the pretrib verses?



I've read the Bible from cover to cover 10 or more times in my short life time since I've become a Christian (I've stopped counting/lost count). I've read some individual books and parts of the Bible, like Paul's letters, perhaps hundreds of times. I've read, re-read, and then read again all the verses. I am pretty familiar with a lot of the major stories without even needing to pickup a copy of the Scriptures.

I've even been to Bible college and seminary, and I've read numerous commentaries, hundreds of monographs, and academic journal articles. I've read people whose theologies I disagreed with, and I've read others who convinced me what I thought was wrong and what they said was true. I've even sat through hundreds if not thousands of hours of lectures, going verse by verse through many parts of the Bible. I've written hundreds (if not thousands) of pages of essays after conducting extensive research on numerous Biblical topics, and historical church figures.

I've also taught and preached hundreds of sermons, in the church and outside of the church, in homes, in homeless shelters, on street corners, in coffee shops, and in fast food restaurants. I've been threatened while preaching, harrased by police, harrased by muslims, harrased by homosexuals, and have even had people blow smoke in my face. Once at a church, I finished preaching and somebody in the congregation stood up and shouted, "I'm angry!!!" with what I had said. I've also seen a number of people wonderfully saved, and filled with the Spirit.

So... I think it is fair to say that my force field is down, and nothing is preventing me from exploring a few verses in the Bible. Really, I'm not afraid.

If you wish to make a point, please make a point, and show me what you have to say. I promise, I'll read it, but you may have to hold my hand throught the process so I can clearly see what it is you have to say. A flippant "just go read it yourself and see" attitude simply will not suffice. I've already read these things, and have opinions and beliefs on a lot of things. If you wish to change my thought process, show a brother some love, and help me see it as you see it.


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Jimmy H

 2014/10/15 8:49Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

I agree that the Elijah connection to the idea of a pre trib (or any) rapture seems tenuous if not non-existent. I have never heard this argument before, like KJ I was a pretribber at one time. I know that Elijah was whisked up to heaven in a chariot but beyond that I see no connection.

I agree with KJ that if you are more specific it would be helpful.


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Todd

 2014/10/15 9:02Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I agree that the Elijah connection to the idea of a pre trib (or any) rapture seems tenuous if not non-existent



In theory, if I were to try and go out on a limb and make a connection, I would appeal to how Elijah was taken care by ravens alongside a creek, or how Elijah was hiding for safety in a cave, while God protected a remnant of the prophets elsewhere.

Of course, in order to do such I would have to ignore other parts of the story line behind Elijah's life... like why he was running away in the first place, why the creek dried up, or why it was that in fact, Jezebel actually killed some of the prophets, and not all were spared.

Or if I were to connect it to Elijah's ascension, of how the Spirit was poured out on Elisah, who went on to do "greater things" than his master (which I would be ok with making such a "type" of the ascension of Christ and the Pentecostal outpouring). But as we all know, Elisah died. He was never whisked away to be with his master. He awaits the Second Coming of Jesus like the rest of us (assuming he wasn't among the few random saints that came back to life when Christ rose from the grave).

I'm sorry... I just don't see any idea of a pre-tribulational rapture "type" embeded in the story of Elijah.


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Jimmy H

 2014/10/15 9:17Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1507


 Re:

Hi King Jimmy'
I have given you enough scripture for you to go and like the Berean search the scripture and see that it is true.Also it is you that presumed I was talking about a pretrib rapture I didnt say it one way or the other.
I do agree with pre trib christians treatment at the hands of others who call them fleshly and worldly etc which is unacceptable as both groups are brothers and sisters in Christ.
Yours Staff

 2014/10/15 16:15Profile





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