| Re: |
The things which l have experienced in this life are, coming to Christ for forgiveness, then after some time, falling from that first love, due to trying to work from the flesh and therefore putting Christ back on the cross. Then He arose from the dead in me and met me in the air with the witness of the saints and l was raptured and given the white garment and fed from the tree of life, sharing in His glory which is our hope of which the scripture speaks to those who have not yet attained. It is not a hope if it happens in the next life. It would then be a certainty. It is spoken if as a hope in this life as hopes are often not fulfilled and one can hope in vain.
| 2014/9/14 19:14|
| Re: |
Gary do you think there are two raptures(I.e. one to take Christians out before the tribulation and a second at the 2nd coming?
| 2014/9/14 19:14||Profile|
| Re: |
krautfrau... I dont think it is wise to interpret the scripture through you experience you nullify the word of god by doing that , Paul clearly said to every Christian in the Thessaloníki that the day of Christ had not come yet .
Neither he or they had experienced it , the meeting the lord in the air or have his body changed in the twik ling of the eye when the dead are raised,so how could you think you have met the lord in the air ,see you nullify the word of god with traditions ...
tmk ... no i lean to wards just one rapture at the end of the tribulation
| 2014/9/14 19:35||Profile|
| Re: The Baptism connection to the Rapture|
The subject line of this thread presumes a physical catching away rapture, as is taught widely in Western Christian churches. I brought up the baptism in the Holy Spirit because I believe it is intimately connected to the yet to be revealed rapture phenomenon, and quite frankly alters the definition of rapture.
Good theology is revealed in the words of Jesus, the prophets who came before Him, and the types and shadows woven into the historical bible narrative. The events surrounding the Exodus from Egypt are classic, the deliverance from bondage, the sacrifice of the lambs, the sprinkling of the blood- all pointing forward in a sign to the true Lamb of God, the true sacrifice on the cross, the beginning of the New Covenant.
The great protection we have in these foreshadowings is that men have great difficulty introducing heresy. These foundations are from long ago, built line on line, precept on precept, not the musings of just one man with a great idea. And exactly why I am so skeptical of the post 1830 rapture doctrine. I cannot see it in the character of God or the words of the prophets. Nor in the clear words of Jesus in Matthew 25.
You do see how the teachings of Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, Mohammad and a host of others have created religious systems held dear by many. But they all begin with a powerful personality claiming to have his own special revelation from God, and lacking the credibility of the prophetic stream. To me, the book of Mormon and the Koran are rantings of nonsense.
Jesus Himself made powerful assertions, even claiming to be God. But the difference was the prophetic stream that preceeded Him. He was able to fulfill ancient prophecy and every qualification of the prediced Messiah. No one else has done anything like it, and He stands alone in all human history as the true Son of God.
To address the other matters in this conversation, I would refer you to 1 Peter 1:13b "...and set your hope fully upon the grace coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
This is wide open to be interpreted both in the near term and the long term. Whenever the grace of Christ comes to you it is a fulfillment of hope, both in a modern day baptism in the Spirit and at the time of the full consummation where we are conformed fully unto Him. Hope is always a virtue, sustaining us as we move from glory to glory, from any small revelation of Christ to larger ones, to the full harvest final revelation.
Well done, Peter!
From what I have read and understood with Krautfrau's previous postings, she believes in sinless perfection, attainable in this life. She has been excoriated for her views on this forum, sometimes without much Christian kindness. She has borne it well and continues to be a valuable witness to the grace of Christ living within her.
I agree to the point that I believe Christians should live above sin, should be a genuine witness to the sinning world that we do not live like that, do not buckle to every temptation, do not comfort ourselves with the Augustinian notion that sin is a natural part of our human makeup. The bible never teaches that sin is anything normal, from the beginning where God tells Cain, "sin is crouching by the door and wants to have you, but you must master it!"
I believe Jesus has the right to expect righteous behavior from His followers, and they should stand in stark contrast to the sinning people of the world. We should not be carried away by our lusts, and when we find that we are- all should stop for a season of repentance. Sin needs to be dealt with quickly and completely, continuing in it is just defiance and in accord with the working of Satan.
So then I strive not so much for "sinless perfection" which has to it the ring of "doctrine," but rather for the daily righteousness that pleases the Father- my heart's desire overall. I pack a full load of repentance in my humility pocket, and use it when necessary. Without humility, repentance doesn't work and it's a real mess if I lose the humility. I depend on the grace of Jesus Christ to restore me, and I set my hope on that.
So we have now made a complete circle, still eagerly hoping for the grace coming to me at the revelation of Jesus Christ!
| 2014/9/14 20:39||Profile|
| Re: |
I hope that I will be granted the opportunity to express my beliefs, in order that there may be no misunderstanding or misinterpretation.
I believe in the sort of perfection that is required in the verse 'Be ye perfect' nothing more and nothing less, and it was due to feeling a long way from it that I cried out one day(s) to the Lord to enable it, which He did.
The Lord does not give commands that we are unable to obey and He does not say 'Try to be perfect and that will be good enough'.
The whole of scripture is about this subject. We are to be above sin not below it. Flesh cannot do it, it is by the grace of God alone.
Gary, if I did not have the confirmation of the saints in the air (and some of them in the archives here on SI), the cloud of witnesses, I would not hold on to my beliefs. Scripture is not for private interpretation.
The day of Christ had indeed not come for many to whom Paul and the other apostles urged to be prepared. It was expected/hoped to be soon because it is a spiritual event. Christ and the apostles could not have envisaged the end of the world to be in their day as they knew that the gospel was to reach the ends of the earth and the number in the kingdom was very tiny. What kind of God would only allow a window of about 40 years to save mankind?
If it is desired, I will exit this thread in order to avoid a shutdown and to comply with the rules of the owner of the site. Thank you.
| 2014/9/15 1:25|
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1 Thess. 4:15-17:
" For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep."
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Raptured) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
1 Cor 15:51-52
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Now whether you believe it is pre- trib, mid trib or post tib, one thing is absolutely clear in scripture, that there is a physical Rapture (catching up) of the Saints unto Jesus at the time of His 2nd coming.
To try and say it refers to a spiritual experience is to deny the clear words of scripture and I would ask those who claim they have experienced this rapture fulfilled spiritually this. Did you go up to the clouds, in the air? Did you hear the last trumpet blown? Was your body changed to become immortal?
If not then you did not experience this rapture according to the word of God.
Quoting Tozer: ' We are suffering to day from a rash of amateurism.'
| 2014/9/15 6:17||Profile|
| Re: |
I am not denying a physical rapture at the end of time, all I know is that I have experienced a spiritual one and yes, the trumpet sounded and it was as though I was in the air ie lifted from the physical realm. I entered eternal life at at point so yes I became immortal. Obviously these things are pictures of the spiritual reality.
What happens in the future is no concern of mine. I am living in this life and being Christlike is all I care about. It is this life that should be our focus and the spiritual rapture of our union with Christ. If we do not have the spiritual one then I doubt whether we will be in the end time one if it is literal as well.
| 2014/9/15 6:43|
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Do not get your theology from the internet.
It can be hazardous to your spiritual well being.
| 2014/9/15 10:34|
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My theology has been formed from the path of suffering. From the many trials l have gone through, starting in early childhood with serious health problems all of my life which prevented me from working, and have often reduced me to total isolation, rejection by family, sexual abuse, the loss of my children and grandchildren, and undiagnosed autism.ln all of this my Lord and Saviour has taught me how to praise Him in all things and cling to Him finding peace and consolation there and most of all through having Him take away my sin which is not inconsequential when you have been badly damaged by life. So don't tell me l am living in fairy land.
| 2014/9/15 11:14|
| Re: What happens before the being siezed to Jesus rapture|
It amazes me, when I started this post I revealed what Paul stated in 1Thess 4 and that is that the Resurrection takes place before the seizing, if we are not in the resurrection then we will certainly not be seized.
Paul said this in 1 Cor 15
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Jesus is the First and afterward at His coming all in Christ shall be Resurrected.
Resurrection was the doctrine of Jesus, John and Paul.
In 1 Thess 4 the focus is on the Resurrection.
Paul states very clearly the following
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
I ask all this one profound question If Jesus is bringing with Him all that have died in Christ how can He also at the same time raise all the dead in Christ, are these not the same people?
The only way that this is possible is that those that have died and rest in Christ have not yet been clothed in their immortal bodies, when Jesus comes He will raise their dead bodies incorruptible and our spirits will be clothed immortal.
Is this not the same as what happened to Jesus, when He died He left His body, but three days later He returned to that same body that was raised Incorruptible and Immortal, there was no body left laying on the slab of rock, His scars were visible in His Resurrected body.
Luk 24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Joh 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
Jesus was raised from the dead and we also will be raised from the dead.
THE RESURRECTION IS SO IMPORTANT AS THE DOCTRINE to be focused on
| 2014/10/12 18:52||Profile|