SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the rapture and what happens before the rapture

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 Next Page )
PosterThread
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: to staff

How can you say that there is a peace time if the 2 witnesses are doing the following

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

does not sound peaceful

Remember that they are ministrying at the same time that the gentiles are trampling the Holy City and it is clearly between the 6th and 7th trumpet when they die

 2014/10/26 22:05Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie
Firstly they are using the powers in a time of relative peace like we have today.The witnesses powers are highlighted because they are using them in a time of relative peace.
Also more importantly we know by the scripture itself that the powers are not actual but could be if needed.
These Powers are how Elijah brings the people of God back in line or "make ready the way of the Lord"
For instance Fire doesnt literally come out of their mouth but fire comes out of their mouth in the sense that the word of God comes out of their mouth.It isnt actual Rain it is the out poured Spirit.It isnt actual blood it is just highlighting one of the powers of Elijah had.
So it has to be a time of Peace for these powers to stand out
Yours Staff

 2014/10/27 9:19Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie
Noah and Lot were not saved and then the Judgement came at the same time.The Judgement came immediately after they were saved "until" thats important.
You are ignoring that Noah and Lot were in peace time (not tribulation) and they were the examples given by Jesus
You are ignoring the other point that the Judgement was immediate not 75 days later.
Also in both Noah and Lot Noah rose up when on the Ark and Lot went up out of the Valley then the Judgement immdediately came.Their was a going up and then Judgement,
You are stuck on the 6th and 7th Trumpet timing I believe.
Yours Staff

 2014/10/27 9:29Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: to staff

Hello staff
The scripture clearly states that the gentiles are trampling the holy city at the same time the 2 witnesses are given power, not peaceful at all, in Jerusalem today there is certainly not peace like in the rest of the world, the battle is on for Gods land and Gods city, so what you are saying is that Elijah never really stopped the rain.
I am happy to accept what God said, if He said Elijah stopped the rain then I am also happy to believe the 2 witnesses stop the rain.
If God said if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
If God said These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Did Moses do all that the Bible said against Egypt or was it all just dreams.

If God Himself said that there will be plagues and waters turned to blood then who am I to argue, I did not write the Book God declared it, I must not argue with God, all I know is this, whatever comes out of the mouths of the 2 witnesses it has power to destroy and kill.

I will believe what God says and not try and take away what He says.

 2014/10/27 15:25Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To staff

I probably used the wrong word at the same time, what I mean by this is as follows.
Noah and family went into the Ark, the door was closed, they were still on the earth and still in the ark, at that time while they were in the ark and on the earth Judgement began to come, the rains came down and the waters arose, the Boat never lifted until the waters arose and even then they were on the waters while the Judgement was made, for this reason I said the same time, yes there is a very small gap of time between entering the ark and the rain coming.
It was the same for Lot, they left the town and while they were leaving they saw the judgement come.
I did not ignore the point that the Judgement was immediate, I even stated that it was at that same time.
I am not stuck on the 6th and 7th Trumpet, as I totally agree with the timing of the 2 witnesses as being in that exact place at that exact time Just prior to Jesus Coming and trampling His Wrath.
You have not yet replied that all of the Tribulation period and Antichrist period fit only between the 6th and 7th Trumpet.
It just does not fit.
How can you make all of the 3 1/2 years of trib and antichrist only fit into the 6th and 7th Trumpet.

I did not say that Judgement was 75 days later, I firmly believe that when Jesus Comes He will deliver us and then bring Judgement The WinePress of the Wrath of God at that time, not 3 1/2 years later, not 7 years later, not 75 days later but as Noah and Lot.

 2014/10/27 15:38Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie,
Hope you are well.
The Powers are not literal have you ever seen fire coming out of a mans mouth?The powers are to bring the church back in line.
God's word(fire)Rain(outpouring)Blood(Ending false prophets in the church)Plagues(afflictions)
The two witnesses will destroy and kill with the word of God,they need nothing else
Yours Staff

 2014/10/27 16:57Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie

Scenario :two witnesses ministry and the Antichrist are given power for the same 1260days(the last half of the tribulation)

Antichrist
“There was given him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.” (Revelation 13:5
Two witnesses
“When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.” (Revelation 11:7

The two witnesses are killed after 1260 days lets say for instance on day 1261, the Antichrist authority to act is gone at that point and the tribulation is over.
Also for argument lets say that the world is celebrating from day 1261 to 1264 the death of the witnesses why are they not worried about the sun darkening etc

Immediately after the distress of those days‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Yours Staff

 2014/10/27 16:58Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie'
I'm not signing off yet on the subject but i want to thank you for your thoughtful and detailed responses .It is good to breakdown the word in these last days.I understand that their are good scholars godly christians on all sides of the debate.
Sermonindex is and excellent forum for such discussions and for edification.I believe the closer the day the more scripture will be revealed to edify the church.
Many say what a useless discussion it doesnt save anyone but they wont be saying that when times get tough and are looking for answers.What they dont realize is the message that gets most people into the kingdom is "Jesus is coming again and he is coming very soon"
Have a good day and chat soon
Yours Staff

 2014/10/27 19:10Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To staff member

I have not seen you use scripture to interpret your theory, you have not answered any of my questions and continue with your view without aligning yourself with scripture, you continue to place the 2 witnesses in the first half of the 7 years, which scripturally is impossible.
You said that they arise from the dead before the Tribulation period and this is in between the 6th and 7th Trumpet.
That means by what you are saying that all of the 3 1/2 year tribulation must fit into the period of the 6th and 7th Trumpet.
If what you are saying is true then everything from the seals 1 to 6 and also Trumpets 1 to 6 is before the Tribulation as you said Clearly that they die before the Tribulation period.
LOOK at what happens in the Trumpets alone before the 6th Trumpet
And Remember you said that this was a time of peace
First trumpet and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Second Trumpet and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Third Trumpet, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Fourth Trumpet and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Fifth Trumpet and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Remember you said that the Tribulation comes after their death.
Your Theory is not supported by theory
Just tickles the ear.

 2014/10/28 6:56Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To staff member

Staff member you said
The Powers are not literal have you ever seen fire coming out of a mans mouth?The powers are to bring the church back in line.

I can only reply with this, did Moses really do all of the plagues in Egypt was it literal or was it all just spiritual, God Himself stated the words in revelation and if He said what the 2 witnesses did I will believe and I will not dare take away from what He said, I don't understand all that is spoken but I certainly will not try and belittle or twist what God has said, the use of the greek words is very literal,and used in that context in many other places to mean what it says
As to the Fire that comes out of their mouths God has not yet revealed, but it does reveal that these 2 have power by God to kill.

Revelations is full of literal and symbolic .

 2014/10/28 7:13Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy