| Re: |
And yet, neither of them have believed in the continuation of the gift of tongues, so technically by definition they were/are "cessationists"..
That is why I brought up Martin Lloyed Jones whom is considered a continuationists.
John Piper writes :
"..When a reformed theologian like Klaas Runia opposed Pentecostalism, Lloyd-Jones agreed that the insistence on tongues and the "claiming" of gifts was wrong, but he was just as disturbed by Runia's concept of the baptism of the Spirit. He wrote to him and said,
I still feel that you really do not allow for revival. You show this where you say, "Read all the passages that speak of the Holy Spirit and the Church. It is always: Become what you are, ALL of you." If it is simply a question of "Become what you are" and nothing more, then how can one pray for revival, and indeed how does one account for the revivals in the history of the church..."
"...Martyn Lloyd-Jones Was Not a Warfieldian Cessationist
Clearly, from what we have seen, Lloyd-Jones was not what we call a cessationist. In fact he came out very strongly against the Warfield kind of cessationism. In 1969 he wrote against "A Memorandum on Faith Healing" put out by the Christian Medical Fellowship in England which relied explicitly on Warfield's arguments that the sign gifts (like healing) were "accompaniments of apostleship" and therefore invalid for today since the apostles were once for all.
I think it is quite without scriptural warrant to say that all these gifts ended with the apostles or the Apostolic Era. I believe there have been undoubted miracles since then..."
research Spurgeon and Washers experiences and what they teach on the such, to me they align more with Martin Lloyed Jones, in contrast research what someone like John MacArthur teaches on the subject, to what I have researched he seems to me to align more with my understanding of a Warfieldian Cessationist.
| 2014/9/11 23:20||Profile|
| Re: |
Its simple. God made a promise to pour out the Holy Spirit on ALL FLESH which He made good on. This happened on the day of pentecost for people who were already believers. This was repeated throughout the book of Acts for people who were already believers. It was all written down for us and now all we need to do is believe and receive.
There are no fancy names needed for those who don't believe in the promise or who don't want to believe. They are missing out and there is nothing you or I or anyone can do for them. Back and forth discussions over all this is pointless. You can lead a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink.
Those who do not believe can line up their favourite preacher/teacher and categorize them and quote them all day long and it won't change what the Word of God says one iota.
THe baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts are ready, willing and available and in free use all over the world and have been for 2000 years...for the edification and strengthening of the church!!! Praise the Lord!!!
| 2014/9/11 23:27|
| Re: the gifts ceasing|
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Charity never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be abolished; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be abolished.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect comes, then that which is in part will cease.
Paul didn't say just one gift would cease or be abolished, but three: prophecies, tongues, and knowledge.
He said the would cease "when that which is perfect comes". Cessationists interpret "that which is perfect" as being the completed Scripture. That is merely their interpretation. But Paul even said that Scripture was a spiritually, not naturally, interpreted book. So even with Scripture, we will need the Spirit to interpret it. Paul said that Christ is made unto us knowledge and wisdom, so even with Scripture the supernatural work of God continues. John said we have an Anointing Who will teach us all things. Jesus said that the Comforter will come to testify of Him, and He will hupomimnēskō, "quietly remind" us of all Jesus taught.
The clearest meaning of the "perfect" would seem to be Christ coming to be with us eternally, and only then these "informational" (prophesy, tongues, knowledge) gifts will no longer be needed.
| 2014/10/11 13:51||Profile|
East TN (for now)
| Re: |
I have been speaking in tongues for 34 years, and with all matter of kindness, I say to anyone who tries to tell me that tongues is no longer needed today is 34 years too late!
And I've also learned to take with a grain of salt how those who do not speak or pray in tongues love to tell those of us who do... "how" to do it! LOL
I received the 2nd blessing and it did change me fundamentally, from the inside out. That is my experience with it, I was before but after the 2nd blessing, I definitely became a new creature in Christ Jesus.
How sad to one day stand before God and try to explain why, you as a mere human being, you didn't accept God of heaven and earth's gifts to His church.
| 2014/10/11 14:30||Profile|
| Re: |
I have been speaking in tongues since becoming a Christian, I always thought I had been saved and was Baptised of the Spirit at the same time. However my thinking has changed, because I speak in tongues and operate in the Gifts of the Spirit it does not mean I am automatically baptised in the Holy Spirit.
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. Ezek 36:26-27
We can see in the scripture here that God promises two works.
1. A new spirit I will put within you.
2. I will give you a new heart.
These are 1. Spirit - (ruwach) and 2. heart (leb)
This combined work should cause us to walk in God statutes and are careful to obey God rules, as he has promised. However I find that I am not very good at obeying God statutes and not very careful when it comes to his rules.
So whats wrong, well I know for sure I am filled with his Spirit as the Spirit witness with my spirit, however when it comes to my heart (leb) it's another matter. My heart remains defiled, I want to do what right and good and proper but don't have the ability to do it, I fail hopelessly at the greatest of the laws loving God with all my heart, I fail hopelessly at loving my neighbour as myself..
Being baptised in the Spirit is described as being "clothed" with power from on high, but currently I don't see that new clothing, I find that I still wear the old clothing which is full of deceitful desires, while the clothing from high is described as the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
I see in scripture that Peter describes the baptism as Holy Spirit as having cleansed their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9.
Oh how I need the Baptism of The Holy Spirit...
| 2014/10/12 16:05||Profile|
| Re: My heart remains defiled|
You need to see what Hudson Taylor saw.
Here is a portion of what he wrote
"All the time I felt assured that there was in Christ all I needed, but the practical question was how to get it out. He was rich, but I was poor; He was strong, but I was weak. I knew full well that there was in the vine, in the root, the stem, abundant fatness; but how to get it into my puny little branch was the question.
As gradually the light dawned on me, I saw that faith was the only prerequisite to laying hold of His fullness and making it my own. But I had not this faith . . . I strove for it, but it would not come; I tried to exercise it, but in vain. Seeing more and more the wondrous supply of grace laid up in Jesus, the fullness of our precious Savior - my helplessness and guilt seemed to increase. Sins committed appeared but as trifles compared with the sin of unbelief which was their cause, which could not or would not take God at His word, but rather made Him a liar! Unbelief was, I felt, the damning sin of the world - yet I indulged in it. I prayed for faith but it did not come. What was I to do?
When my agony of soul was at its height, a sentence in a letter from dear McCarthy was used to remove the scales from my eyes, and the Spirit of God revealed the truth of our oneness with Jesus as I had never seen it before. McCarthy, who had been much exercised by the same sense of failure, but saw the light before I did, wrote (I quote from memory): "But how to get faith strengthened? Not by striving after faith, but by resting on the Faithful One."
As I read I saw it all! "If we believe not, He remains faithful." I looked to Jesus and saw (and when I saw, oh, how joy flowed) that He had said, "I will never leave you." "Ah, here is rest!" I thought. "I have striven in vain to rest in Him. I'll strive no more. For has He not promised to abide with me - never to leave me, never to fail me?" And Dearie, He never will!"
When he read this, his eyes were opened to the truth that had already existed. "But how to get faith strengthened? Not by striving after faith, but by resting on the Faithful One. If we believe not, He remains faithful”. This was the secret of what he saw that he had never realized before. He saw that God in Christ had already given him the faith and the belief that was required. God had placed Him in Christ and that he just rest in God's faithfulness to keep him there.
"But this was not all He showed me, nor one half. As I thought of the vine and the branches, what light the blessed Spirit poured directly into my soul! How great seemed my mistake in having wished to get the sap, the fullness, out of Him. I saw not only that Jesus would never leave me, but that I was a member of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. The vine now I see is not the root merely, but all - root, stem, branches, twigs, leaves, flowers, fruit; and Jesus is not only that; He is soil and sunshine, air and showers, and ten thousand times more than we have ever dreamed, wished for, or needed. Oh the joy of seeing this truth! I do pray that the eyes of your understanding may be enlightened, that you may know and enjoy the riches freely given us in Christ. "
| 2014/10/13 16:21|