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Discussion Forum : General Topics : When did the Holy Spirit "Come"?

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Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1694


 Re:

Quote:

So what you said about John 16 that Jesus was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, being a subsequent and different experience to being born again or saved.



Incidently I happened to read John 16 today as part of my regular bible study. I always understood Jesus telling the believers the work of Holy Spirit that will be performed from inside his disciples. The passage that you referred is the ministry of Holy Spirit. The 3 fold ministry will include brining Sin conviction inside disciples, to show them that the world and its ruler are judged so that we will no longer long for worldy things, to show the righteousness of God (life of Jesus) to us.

An unbeliever does not need bapistim of Holy Spirit to bring sin conviction. Many get sin conviction when they hear an annointed speaker. The Holy Spirit inside the annointed speaker has spoken God's word to convict this unbeliever.

The point I am trying to say is, Holy Spirit brining conviction by momentarily working upon an individiual is different from the experience that Jesus is refering here in John 16. Here the Spirit will live inside us and bring conviction. Such thing was never possible before because the heart of man was so wicked due to sin. Now that our sins are cleansed, God's spirit is free to dwell in us.


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Sreeram

 2014/9/10 3:04Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: The point I am trying to say is, Holy Spirit brining conviction by momentarily working upon an individiual is different from the experience that Jesus is refering here in John 16. Here the Spirit will live inside us and bring conviction.

The law written in our inward parts our heart, is the Holy Spirit inside of us..

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33




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Colin Murray

 2014/9/10 12:09Profile









 Re: "WHEN HE COMES"...

Random thought and I dare say a little controversial, but what if it is true that we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion to be born again, but we are filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit in the subsequent Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is what I personally believe. Okay stay with me because I am about to say it...

What if, when Jesus said WHEN HE COMES, meaning the outpouring, the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the disciples...so WHEN HE COMES (John 16:13)...THEN..."He will guide you into all the truth..."

What I am saying is this. What if the baptism in the Holy Spirit is so vital, so necessary (not for salvation of course) but for everything else!!! And in particular so that we can be led into ALL TRUTH???

There are people who are very anti the baptism of the Holy Spirit (call them cessationists if you like), but many of them have also bought into so much other falsehood. They believe in doctrines of men that are clearly contradictory to the nature of God as seen in scripture. What if this is mostly because they do not have the fullness, the outpouring, the baptism of the Holy Spirit in their lives? Am I onto something or just a little too excited here?

Not trying to come up with new doctrine, but this actually makes a lot of sense to me.

My thoughts of course are predicated on the understanding that John 16:13 is in reference to the day of Pentecost...WHEN HE COMES (on the day of Pentecost).

What are your thoughts?

 2014/9/10 13:32
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: What if this is mostly because they do not have the fullness, the outpouring, the baptism of the Holy Spirit in their lives?

Do you have the fullness of the Holy Spirit?

These "cessationist" would point out to us, that those who may claim to have the 'fullness' run the church along the same lines as a circus.

Personally I would ask someone who claims to have the fullness of the blessing; were is the Shekinah Glory.. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that makes a Temple of the Living God. The commonest bush ablaze with the Shekinah Glory of God, becomes a miracle of glory. It makes the feeble become as David, and the choice mighty as the angel of the Lord. The man fully energized by the Holy Ghost is marked by aggressive evangelism, social revolution and persecution.


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Colin Murray

 2014/9/10 18:00Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Personally I would ask someone who claims to have the fullness of the blessing; were is the Shekinah Glory.. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that makes a Temple of the Living God. The commonest bush ablaze with the Shekinah Glory of God, becomes a miracle of glory. It makes the feeble become as David, and the choice mighty as the angel of the Lord. The man fully energized by the Holy Ghost is marked by aggressive evangelism, social revolution and persecution.


Amen.

What many "continuationist" brethren don't seem to comprehend is that what they term the "baptism of the Spirit", many "cessationists" term the "filling of the Spirit"(yet leaving out certain miraculous signs like tongues and "healing ministries").

There have been many "cessationists" throughout history that have been full of the Holy Spirit and have done mighty exploits through His power and presence in their lives(men like Whitefield and Spurgeon to name a few). Their view has been that, at conversion one is indwelt and baptized by the Spirit and filled, yet there need to be more fillings throughout one's walk, or else one will grow cold or lukewarm.


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Oracio

 2014/9/10 18:22Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

I don't want to cause any strife, my post was more about being honest and looking at ourselves, rather than pointing fingers at other groups. I would say to you forget Whitefield and Spurgeon do you live the pentecostal life?

I challenge myself, I challenge whoever reads this do we have the fullness of the Spirit, do we live the pentecostal life?

Pentecost Brings Deliverance: The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus makes men free.

Pentecost Brings Abounding Vitality: Our Lord came that we might have abundant and abounding life.

Pentecost Brings Understanding: Where did Peter get the sermon he preached on the Day of Pentecost had he been carefully preparing it in the Upper room.

Pentecost Brings a New Fellowship in Prayer: And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.

Pentecost Brings Power: That was the specific promise of Christ. "Ye shall receive Power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you, and ye shall be witnesses unto Me.

Pentecost Brings the Fire of God: Fire is the chosen symbol of Heaven for moral passion it is that emotion enflamed. God is love; God is fire. The two are one. The Holy Spirit baptizes in fire and Spirit-filled souls are ablaze for God. They love with a love that glows.

Pentecost Brings Passion for the Souls of Men: The experience is completed in anguish and tears for the lost. There is no stricter test of grace than the attitude to the lost.


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Colin Murray

 2014/9/10 22:06Profile









 Re:

Pentecost Brings a Pure Heart: Enabling us to obey Christ in all things.

 2014/9/10 23:03
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I would say to you forget Whitefield and Spurgeon do you live the pentecostal life?


Brother, I mentioned them as examples of men of God who have been filled with the Spirit without adhering to what we know today as continuationism. And I would also add here, men of God who also did not adhere to any form of sinless perfectionism.

My point was to try to reason with continuationist brethren who might be quick to write off cessationists as not being filled with the Spirit. A modern day example of a Spirit-filled cessationist I would point out is brother Paul Washer.

As to whether or not I'm filled with the Spirit, even if I was, if I answered yes it would make me proud and puffed up. I'll let God determine that. I know in many ways or areas I am but a babe in Christ and have much need of growth.

I read this quote from Ray Comfort on Facebook today which I agree with: "The best of Christians have been the worst of sinners."

In other words, the closer we get to God the more we become aware of our shortcomings as His light and truth pierce through our hearts. And we become more and more aware of our desperate need for His grace and mercy in our lives.

I also read this from Matthew Henry's commentary which really blessed me; regarding those whom Christ will confess as His before the Father, Henry(also a cessationist btw) writes:

"it will be our unspeakable honor and happiness to hear Christ say (what would we more?) "Him will I confess, though a poor worthless worm of the earth; this is one of mine, one of my friends and favorites, who loved me and was beloved by me; the purchase of my blood, the workmanship of my Spirit; I will confess him before my Father, when it will do him the most service; I will speak a good word for him, when he appears before my Father to receive his doom; I will present him, will represent him to my Father." Those who honor Christ he will thus honor."


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Oracio

 2014/9/10 23:12Profile









 Re:

A zealous man is not necessarily filled with the Spirit. He is certainly filled with something but the Holy Spirit brings certain characteristics and the main one being holiness.

 2014/9/10 23:26
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1694


 Re:

Quote:

Random thought and I dare say a little controversial, but what if it is true that we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion to be born again, but we are filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit in the subsequent Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is what I personally believe. Okay stay with me because I am about to say it...



I agree with you brother. Paul says clearly that 'no one can say Jesus is God without Holy Spirit'. Which means we all receive Holy Spirit when we believe in Jesus with repentance. But Baptism of Holy Spirit is a different experience. It is the fullness of Spirit dwelling in us and enabling or empowering us to do his will.

Jesus himself breathed on his disciples and said receive the Holy Spirit. But on the day of Pentecost there was an outpouring of Holy Spirit in them. Hence it is Biblical to believe in receiving the Spirit twice.


Quote:

What I am saying is this. What if the baptism in the Holy Spirit is so vital, so necessary (not for salvation of course) but for everything else!!! And in particular so that we can be led into ALL TRUTH???



It depends on what you refer as salvation. For me salvation is not just forgiving of my sins, but to be free from the power of Sin. So according to me Baptism of Holy Spirit is most needed for salvation.

Quote:

There are people who are very anti the baptism of the Holy Spirit (call them cessationists if you like), but many of them have also bought into so much other falsehood.



Yes I agree there are lot of falsehood when it comes to Baptism of Holy Spirit. Do you know why? Because it is so valuable. People only couterfeit valuable things. But just because there are false testimonies floating around if one rejects the entire blessing then he is a fool and suffers loss. For example if one stops using $ bills because there are lot of fake $ bills floating around then who is going to suffer loss? The person can still live but cannot buy anything to live a comfortable life.


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Sreeram

 2014/9/11 1:47Profile





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