Following on from some posts on another discussion I wants ask.......

If you say a person can be saved by being 'good'and living by their conscience, why did Jesus die on the cross?

If you say those living good lives according to their conscience are saved by Jesus' death having never heard the gospel, wouldn't it be better that no one hears and remains in ignorance?

When Jesus said that He came for the sinners only and not the righteous, does He mean that there are those who have a righteousness acceptable to God and don't need to be saved?

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Dave

Having watched people over many years, I have become a bit cynical toward the evangelical standard protocol by which so many believe they are saved.

Why do they love the passages like "There is none righteous, no not one" which is more a lament than a Theological premise, and "Not by works lest any man should boast."

Great scriptures of course, and true indeed. But they are so easy to slap at someone instead of helping them see how destructive their personal habits are, how deeply rebellious their hearts are, how the fulfilling of personal lusts constitutes crimes against the kingdom of God.

We are left with a Christian population whose lives are dry fruit, indistinguishable from the world, void of visible righteousness- the very thing God is anxious to see in the people who carry the Name of His Son.

So many slide past John 15:22. "If I had not come and spoken to them, (Pharisees) they would not have sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin." Jesus Himself says here and on another passage that there were men without sin!

Jesus, by the standards of most modern Christendom, was a theological moron. He never ackowledged Original Sin, and even told the woman taken in adultery to "Go and sin no more." What audacity! Why, He had no right to such an unreasonable expectation!

We have come to believe that sin is normal, a natural condition of being human. Our favorite excuse... oops, I mean "passage" is "All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God."

We will go to great lengths to avoid being the righteousness of Christ, of living holy and apart, of bringing into social situations an aroma of Christ that shuts down coarse speech, mocking laughter, hurtful gossip, and the conniving of new sin.

James drove the reformers nuts, and still irritates their descendants today- "I will show you my faith by my works!"

No man will be saved who sins, knows it, and refuses the cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ. But without a genuine repentance and a living evidence of a righteous life, will that acceptance of Christ's sacrifice be only a mocking lie?

Righteousness performed just to bypass Christ and force the Father to accept me is just another form of selfishness and sin. Past sins and the weight of that guilt will never let a man be at true peace with God, every man must deal thoroughly and honestly with sin. Only the blood of Jesus can wash it away.

But the other side of that should be a sweet embracing of righteousness, visible to all, and totally refreshing in the regenerate man. Such a man will never give up and go back to sin, he will learn to hate it as he increases his love for Jesus.

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Tom Cameron

quote: "Can you be saved by good works and conscience?"

God can save whomever He wants.

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Todd

God cannot save anyone He wants. Actually, He "wants" to save everybody, but cannot. If He could, the death of Jesus on the cross would have been His act of needless cruelty since there would have been, as Jesus asked in the garden, another way.

Jesus had to die because If God were to suspend the penalty of the law for one, He would be obligated to suspend it for everyone. His law, His justice, and His love would be meaningless.

It broke the Father's heart to see His Son die on the cross, but He shared the passion of Jesus despising the shame for the rich reward to come.

He had no other way to get us for Himself.

Yes, He loves us that much!

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Tom Cameron

Question: "Can a person be saved through general revelation?"

Answer: General revelation can be defined as “the revelation of God to all people, at all times, and in all places that reveals that God exists and that He is intelligent, powerful, and transcendent.” Scriptures such as Psalm 19:1–4 and Romans 1:20 clearly state that certain things about God can be understood from His creation around us. Creation reveals God’s power and majesty, but it does not reveal the plan of salvation through Christ. There is only salvation in Jesus’ name (Acts 4:12); therefore, a person cannot be saved simply through general revelation. Usually, the question “Can a person be saved through general revelation?” is asked in relation to another question, “What happens to those who have never heard the gospel?”

Sadly, there are still parts of the world with absolutely no access to the Bible, to the gospel of Jesus Christ, or to any means of learning Christian truth. The question then arises, what happens to these people when they die? Is it fair for God to condemn a person who has never heard the gospel or of Jesus Christ? Some propose the idea that God judges those who have never heard based on how they responded to general revelation. The presumption is that, if a person truly believes what can be known about God through general revelation, God will judge the person based on that faith and allow the person entrance into heaven.

The problem is that Scripture declares that, unless a person is in Christ, he or she “stands condemned already” (John 3:18). Romans 3:10–12, quoting Psalm 14:3, pronounces the unregenerate nature to be universally sinful: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” According to Scripture, the knowledge of God is available (through general revelation), but mankind perverts it to his own liking. Romans 1:21–23 states, “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” The status of those without God is one of rebellion, darkness, and idolatry.

Man rebels despite general revelation. Sinful man willfully rejects what can be known of God through nature and seeks ways to avoid the truth (see John 3:19). Since man does not naturally seek God, God must seek him—and that is exactly what He did, in the Person of Jesus Christ. Jesus came “to seek and to save the lost” (Luke 19:10).

A good example of our need for the gospel is found in Acts 10. Cornelius knew about God and was “devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly” (Acts 10:2). Did God save Cornelius because of his devotion to God based on the limited knowledge he had? No. Cornelius needed to hear about Jesus. God instructed Cornelius to contact the apostle Peter and invite him to come to Cornelius’ home. Cornelius obeyed, and Peter came and presented the gospel to Cornelius and his family. Cornelius and his household believed in Jesus and were therefore saved (Acts 10:44–48). No one, not even a “good” man like Cornelius, is saved simply by believing that God exists or by honoring God in certain ways. The only way of salvation is the gospel of Jesus Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:12).

General revelation can be seen as a universal call for people to acknowledge God’s existence. But general revelation, by itself, is not enough to lead a person to salvation in Christ. That is why it is so important for us to proclaim the gospel throughout the whole world (Matthew 28:19–20; Acts 1:8). Romans 10:14 declares, “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?” Faith in the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ is the only means of salvation (John 3:16).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/saved-general-revelation.

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/what-happens-to-those-who-have-never-heard-the-gospel

"God cannot save anyone He wants."

Who does the saving?

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Todd

HeyDave, how are you? Hope all is well. Good questions. The Bible days Ye have not because ye ask not. It says again, ask and it shall be given you.

Sidewalk, your response was the bomb. I would consider that a "slam dunk."

Question: Can you be saved by good works and conscience?

Let's see what the Scripture says.

Matthew 19:16-21 KJV
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is , God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? [21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

The Rich man had good works, he was a nice guy no doubt. He hadn't killed anyone, hadn't committed adultery, had always honored his parents. He was a respectful, well behaved, morally right, dignified person. He had good works, but what he didn't have was salvation.

Jesus saw that although he was a good person who no doubt was faithful to the synagogue every sabbath, his heart was given to other gods. He trusted in himself and his money rather than trusting in God.

Jesus told him that if he was to be perfect and have treasure in heaven, he would have to sell all he had.and follow Him. Not because having money was wrong but rather because the Bible says thou shalt.have no other Gods before me, and the rich man was serving himself and not God. He had to fully surrender to Christ and follow Him, then he would be saved.

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Then there is Nicodemus, whom we read about in John 3. Nicodemus was a Pharisee, a man who lived by the law of man and taught others to do so. He lived a very strict life, was a good moral person, no doubt was admired by many. But what does Jesus say to Nicodemus when He comes to him?

John 3:3 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The first words of Jesus to this man aren't "you are a good person, you will enter heaven."

He didn't tell him, " just keep going to church and paying your tithes and you will be okay."

Keep in mind, this isn't a drunkard, an adulterer, a liar, or a thief. This is a man who was very religious. Yet when Jesus sees him, the first thing he tells him is You must be born again!!!

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One of the most perverted scriptures is Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are not saved by OUR works, or by our righteousness. The Bible says our righteousness is as filthy rags! Salvation is by repentance and faith in Christ. Believing in Him for your hope and salvation. Most people stop at verse 9 but let's look at verse 10.

Ephesians 2:10 KJV
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by OUR works, but when we are saved we become a new creature created to do HIS works.

What are His works? Everything in the word of God.

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God(Luke 4).

Jesus said if Ye love me, keep my commandments(john 14:15).

We are saved by placing our faith in Christ(which is doing what God wants) and we stay that way by our obedience to His Word.

That's why James said ill show you my faith by my works. He wasn't implying that He was doing what he thought was right but rather that his faith in Christ was evidenced by His obedience to and total dependance upon Christ. He worked the works of Christ.

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Good to hear from you all, hope everybody is doing well. Love you all. goodnight.

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Elijah

Sidewalk, I like what you have written and find myself agreeing with most all you wrote, but you did not address the questions. Yes truth can be perverted and used to justify ungodliness, but that was not the question, it was on what basis is salvation given?

TMK, Well what a daft statement! Of course God can save who He wants, but He has decreed that it can to be 'one way' only! Only in Christ are we saved.

Matt, Great points and examples given. I like the example of Cornelius you gave. Here is an interesting principle that I see repeated through the bible. That is, Cornelius was a devout man that sought God and looked for truth. Therefore God revealed to him the way of salvation. As you said, he had to come through the only way, which is repentance and faith in Christ as his saviour.

ManofGod, Like what you wrote and I agree. In the passage about the Rich young ruler the follow up conversation between Jesus and His disciples is very telling! The disciples are astonished when Jesus said of that man "how hard it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom" and they said "Who the can be saved?" Jesus said " With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible." In other words it takes a work of God to bring someone to abandon all to follow Christ. A work of God to produce the new birth. We cannot birth ourselves anymore than a baby can decide it will be born.

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Dave

Quote: """ Can you be saved by good works and conscience?"""


NO!

1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

How do we believe? Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: ((((((To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:))))) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Only one perfection of righteousness and that is The Mystery. ((((( present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.))))) This is Salvation, if God make you perfect you are perfect indeed as is our freedom, If Christ shall make you free you are free indeed.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The flesh Is "slew" by the Law and dies and is dead, Praise God. The Soul/mind will and emotions by the Spirit of Christ in us is life eternal and praise God it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. I must die that He might live in me, when I am dead and weak He is Strong in me.

Praise God I am going to die soon and shed this flesh that wars against the Spirit that is in me.

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip