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Brenda said: "So Bailey is saying that there was only the OC until Calvary and then there was the NC but Murray says that both existed from the beginning..."
A careful reading of Murray's quote shows that he did not say both existed from the beginning. He said (in the quote you provided): "Once a year the High Priest might enter [the Holy of holies], AS A PROMISE [my caps] of the time when the veil should be taken away and the full access to dwell in God's presence be given to His people. In Christ's death the veil of the temple was rent, and His blood gives us boldness and power to enter into the Holiest of all and live there day by day in the immediate presence of God." (end of quote)
So, that access was not available under the Old Covenant. The way of the Holiest was not provided till the veil, that is to say, His flesh, was rent on the Cross of Calvary (Heb. 10:19).
| 2014/9/5 13:25||Profile|
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I noticed there are other posts since I last posted...but I have been transcribing Pastor Poonen's teachings, but this is still in regard to Psalm 119....
Pastor Poonen teaches about God’s will for us in the New Covenant and that we are called upon to do these things continually. I will focus on about minute 27 of the recording…
“Number two, pray without ceasing, that is God’s will for us…it is the spirit of prayer. And prayer speaks of our helpless dependence upon God. It’s the helpless dependence leaning of the personality upon God. It’s that spirit, prayer is not always spoken like in the song we sang, prayer is the soul’s sincere desire uttered or unexpressed. A desire in the heart that rises up to God. A continual longing after God a continual dependence upon God. “
Then Pastor Poonen continues with the third precept…after which I will transcribe his following words at the 28:27 mark…
“Now the interesting thing is that none of these commandments are found in the Old Testament. Why…because Jesus said your hearts were hard. When your heart is hard you can’t do these things. And a man who does not do these things his heart is hard. “
Does the writer of Psalm 119 show the evidence of what Pastor Poonen describes above concerning continuous prayer?
What seems to be confusing is that Pastor Poonen only looks to the Law given to Moses and only looks at what it requires of man. What Pastor Poonen does not see is the fruit of faith that comes from the covenant God makes with the individual.
| 2014/9/5 13:56||Profile|
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Brother Gregg writes:
"It is amazing to me how Psalm 119 ends:
I have gone astray like a lost sheep;
Seek Your servant,
For I do not forget Your commandments.
Also that the focus of the Psalm is on the Scriptures and commands of God and not intimate relationship with God Himself. 2 Corinthians 3 is important that shows there is a difference between what God has doing in the Old Testament and New Testament."
In terms of the last verse in Psalm 119, is this a symptom of a hard heart, or a heart of a man who knows where he must look to for Salvation?
In terms of a personal relationship...
I have not departed from Your judgments,
For You Yourself have taught me
Seven times a day I praise You,
Because of Your righteous judgments
As Pastor Poonen often says, Let God be true and every man a liar.
What does the writer of Psalm 119 mean when he states under the control of the Holy Spirit...
"For You Yourself have taught me."
| 2014/9/5 14:12||Profile|
| Re: well said Robert.|
| 2014/9/5 16:41||Profile|
| Re: Canadian, too, eh? Whereabouts are you?|
Ontario, near Toronto. I'm waiting for a response to a question that I put to Ron on his blog to see if perhaps we are "on the same page". I am rather swamped with material to consider at this point but will consider picking up his book.
The old covenant was greatly discussed in Scripture revealing the blessings and the curses according to man's obligation or response. I have yet to discover any material, written or oral, that discuss the terms of the New Covenant. My first point of reference is of course Scripture. All else is secondary. Instead of being explicit , like in the old covenant, Scripture seems to make implicit or indirect references concerning the terms of the new covenant. Yes, there is much written about the new covenant especially in comparison to the old but man's responsibilities to the covenant are not spelled out quite so clearly as in the old. It seems that only by digging will we learn. I'm thinking of remarks about following Jesus, obeying His commands, loving others, doing the will of the Father, perseverance, being ready, bearing the right kind of fruit, abiding in Him, crucifying the flesh, keeping from sin, etc. These are implied terms as I see them though not specifically related to the new covenant. They are used to distinguish a disciple from a non-disciple. We are His disciples if we....Yet, the same qualities of a disciple seem to be determining factors in our eternal destiny. Forgive me if I am unclear in some of this but I am still in the stage of developing thoughts. Has anyone come across such a discussion?
| 2014/9/5 22:49||Profile|
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I've herd it said that Christians have the spirit with in us but in the old covenant ,these saints never did but only the spirit came upon the prophets .
But we have scripture like this ;;; Peter 1;10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time [ THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST THAT WAS WITHIN THEM ] was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
So the saints or prophets under the old covenant had the spirit of Christ in them
Im under the opinion that a saint could still have been born of god , by the spirit of Christ with in them and be sanctified and fear god have faith ,be transformed according to gods election ,and the same goes for the new covenant .But gods election is manifold in size ,in the new age of the new covenant god mercy is greater and he pours his election and on all flesh,,but was very selective in the old ,selecting only a small remnant ,and even so never produced a power full sanctification ,,but left most of the old testament saints as babes in the spirit of Christ , not perfected or baptized in the spirit . But were still justfied by faith through the work of the holy spirit ....AS it is written the just shall live by faith ...
| 2014/9/5 23:33||Profile|
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Andrew Murray in "The Two Covenants":
The central demand of the Old Covenant, Obey My voice, and I will be your God, has
now been met. With the law written in the heart, He can be our God, and we shall be His
people. Perfect harmony with God's will, holiness in heart and life, is the only thing that
can satisfy God's heart or ours. And it is this the New Covenant gives in Divine power, "I
will give them an heart to know Me; and I will be their God, and they shall be My
people; for they shall *turn to me with their whole heart*." It is on the state of the heart, it
is on the new heart, as given by God, that the New Covenant life hinges.
Turning to God with the whole heart is the condition of the new covenant.
This obedience is of faith. "By faith, Abraham obeyed." By faith the promises of the
Covenant, the presence of the Surety of the Covenant, the hidden inworking of the Holy
Spirit, and the love of God in His infinite desire and power to make true in us all His love
and promises, must live in us. Faith can bring them nigh, and make us live in the very
midst of them. Christ and Hie wonderful redemption need not remain at a distance from
us in heaven, but can become our continual experience.
Through the *everlasting covenant* not related to time and covering all of creation, it is by faith that we enter in like Abraham. We are either under law or grace and many in the OT were living according tot he law of grace like Abraham.
IN the days of Asa, Hezekiah, and Josiah, we read of Israel entering into "the Covenant"
with their whole heart, " to perform the words of the Covenant which are written in the
book." Of Asa's day, we read: " They sware unto the Lord; and all Judah rejoiced at the
oath, for they had sworn with their whole heart, and sought Him with their whole desire;
and He was found of them." Wholeheartedness is the secret of entering the Covenant, and
God being found of us in it. Wholeheartedness is the secret of joy in religion ---a full
entrance into all the blessedness the Covenant brings. God rejoices over His people to do
them good, with His whole heart and His whole soul: it needs, on our part, our whole
heart and our whole soul to enter into and enjoy this joy of God in doing us good with
His whole heart and His whole soul.
Listen to Samuel (1 Sam. xii. 20, 24): "Turn not aside from following the Lord, but serve
the Lord with all your heart. Only fear the Lord, and serve Him in truth with all your
Hear David repeating God's promise to Solomon (1 Kings ii. 4):
" If thy children take heed to their way, to walk before Me in truth with all their heart and
all their soul."
Hear God's word concerning David (1 Kings xiv. 8): "My servant David, who followed
Me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in Mine eyes."
Hear Solomon in his temple prayer (1 Kings viii. 48): "If they return to Thee with all
their heart and all their soul, bear Thou their prayer."
Listen to what is said of Jehu (2 Kings x. 31) : "The Lord said unto Jehu, Thou hast done
well in executing that which is right in Mine eyes. But Jehu took no heed to walk in the,
law of the Lord with all his heart."
Of Josiah we read (2 Kings xxiii. 3, 25) : "The king and all the men of Judah made a
covenant with the Lord, to walk after the Lord, with all their heart and with all their soul,
to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. There was no king
like him, that turned to the Lord with all his heart, and all his soul, and all his might."
The words concerning Asa, in 2 Chron. xv. 12, 15, we had as our text.
Of Jehoshaphat, men said (2 Chron. xxii. 9): "He sought the Lord with all his heart."
And of Hezekiah it is written (2 Chron. xxxi. 21) : "In every work that he began, to seek
his God, he did it with all his heart and prospered."
Oh that all would ask God to give them, by the Holy Spirit, a simple vision of Himself!---
claiming, giving, accepting, blessing, delighting in, the love and service of the whole
heart-the sacrifice of the whole burnt-offering. Surely they would fall down and join the
ranks of those who have given it; and refuse to think of anything as religious life, or
worship, or service, but that in which their whole heart went out to God.
Turn to the Psalms. Hear David (ix. 1, cxi. 1, cxxxviii. 1):
"I will praise Thee with my whole heart." And in Psalm cxix., the Psalm of the way of
blessedness: "Blessed who seek Him with the whole heart. With my whole heart have I
sought Thee. I shall keep Thy law, yea I shall observe it with nay whole heart. I entreated
Thy favour with my whole heart. I will keep Thy precepts with my whole heart. I cried
with my whole heart. " Praise and prayer; seeking God and keeping His precepts; all
equally with the whole heart. Shall we not begin asking more earnestly than ever, as often as we see men engaged in
their earthly pursuits in search of money, or pleasure, or fame, or power, with their whole
heart. Is this the spirit in which Christians consider that God must be served? Is this the
spirit in which I serve Him? Is not this the one thing needful in our religion? Lord,
reveal unto us Thy will!
Now, just a few words more from the Prophets about the new time, the great change that
can come into our lives.
Jer. xxiv. 7 : "I will give them an heart to know Me that I am the Lord; and they shall be
My people and I will be their God; for they shall return to Me with their whole heart."
xxix. 13: "Ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your
heart. And I will be found of you, saith the Lord."
xxxii. 39-41.-Let my reader not be weary of reading carefully these Divine words: they
contain the secret, the seed, the living power of a complete transition out of a life in the
bondage of halfhearted service, to the glorious liberty of the children of God.---"I will
give them one heart, that they may fear Me for ever. And I will make an everlasting
covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them to do them good; but I will put
my fear in their heart, that they shall not depart from Me. Yea, I will rejoice over them to
do them good, with My whole heart and My whole Soul!"
It is to be all God's doing. And He is to do it with His whole heart and His whole soul. It
is the vision of this God with His whole heart loving us, longing and delighting to fulfil
His promise, and make us wholly His own, that we need. This vision makes it impossible
not to love Him with our whole heart. Lord, open our eyes that we may see!
Joel ii. 12: "Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to Ale with all your heart."
Zeph. iii. 14: "Shout, O Israel; BE GLAD AND REJOICE WITH ALL THE HEART; the
Lord hath taken away thy judgments. HE HATH CAST OUT THINE ENEM; THE
KING OF ISRAEL, THE LORD, IS IN THE MIDST OF THEE; THOU SHALT NOT
SEE EVIL ANY MORE."
The scripture records those who entered into the new convenant by faith, serving God with the WHOLE HEART as holy men. They had the Holy Spirit within them which enabled them to hear God and to walk in His statutes. They were sanctified and holy.
| 2014/9/6 1:35|
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Trxx said, "I have yet to discover any material, written or oral, that discuss the terms of the New Covenant."
I think that by this you mean our part in it-- the terms we are to keep. From the Lord's side, as mediator of the covenant, the terms are: "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts..." (Heb. 8.10). The end result of which is conformity to the Son of God.
Our part is simple-- to let Him do that.
| 2014/9/6 11:32||Profile|
| Re: |
I do not want this to seem like I am looking for support in the way that there are two opposing views in this thread. With that said, thank you for bringing to bear the Scriptures, the pure milk of the Word.
Whether one lived in Old Testament times or in New Testament times, the work of God is evident in all generations. And Christ is the Word of God who was, is, and will sanctify those who discover the means by which God has determined who He makes an everlasting covenant with. And the narrow path, the only path in the entirety of Scripture comes down to the precept...Faith.
This is why Paul uses Abraham to help us get our heads around this concept of faith.
For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,
The fog of confusion exists because many are still living under the law of Moses without understanding, because they are not willing to feed on the pure milk of Scripture.
I have found Pastor Poonen to be one who still places burdens upon men that they cannot carry. I recognize this precept because I too, as I read Scripture, saw mountains before me. I too, tried to; in my carnal mind, to climb the mountains that I saw. I was choosing mountains for myself. I point this out because in the sermon in the 38 minute mark or so Pastor Poonen tells us to pick mountains and spend 10 or 12 years climbing each mountain...
But then one day Christ showed me that another way...live day to day, faith to faith, and the result, is that those mountains disappear. Those who live by biblical faith will find that the Psalms of the Old Testament are everlasting.
So I could never accuse David for his shortcomings because I have too many to list of my own. But I also know His Lord.
“For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:
‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool
| 2014/9/6 11:52||Profile|
| Re: |
You are absolutely right as to what I meant by the terms of the new covenant. But I don't think that our part is quite so simple as "to let Him do that."
I'm learning more each day as I investigate Biblical references to covenants. I am particularly interested in the new covenant.
It seems to me that there are but 2 kinds of covenants - conditional or unconditional. Both kinds are between 2 parties. The Noahic, Davidic, and Abrahamic are examples of unconditional covenants. The promise was to be fulfilled without any requirements from any man or woman. The old covenant was conditional to man's response or actions. There were certain requirements that needed to be met in order to fulfill the covenant. Of course God would not be the one to break covenant. Israel (man) could and did break the old covenant.
I am of the mind that the new covenant is conditional. Its the conditions or terms that need to be understood.
I just googled, "Is the new covenant conditional or unconditional?" It seems that there is already much discussion regarding this question so I have much to investigate and ponder. Some believe that the new covenant is unconditional and others conditional. I can't see unconditional because that to me would mean universalism or that all are saved, nothing is required. But if it is conditional then man has a responsibility in order to keep or maintain the covenant. An unconditional covenant cannot be broken by either party but a conditional covenant, though God cannot break covenant because of His character, can be broken by the other party involved, namely man or us. It seems to me that each one of us ought to know and understand the covenant that we are party to. Have we actually made covenant with God? When in our family devotions we discussed the old covenant while reading in Deuteronomy I believe we actually thought it appropriate to enter into a covenant with God.
Will He not reveal to us the workings of the new covenant if we ask of Him? We often pray for wisdom and understanding concerning the new covenant and it seems that God is being faithful to reveal it to us.
| 2014/9/6 21:02||Profile|