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ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

You're welcome, trxx. Yes, UK Bible teacher Ron Bailey has a blog, and also a website called Biblebase. http://biblebase.com/

There's also a forum there but it hasn't been functioning very well and is in the throes of some changes at the moment.

http://ncw.biblebase.com/modules/newbb/

And I do encourage you to get that book! You won't be disappointed!

...You're a Canadian, too, eh? Whereabouts are you?






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Allan Halton

 2014/9/4 23:44Profile









 Re:

Quote:
My observation of Poonen's teaching is this...he does not understand or is not familiar with the OT. Throughout the OT there are testimonies of most who reject God, but there is on the other hand, continual testimony given of a "remanent" that does not have a hardened heart.



rookie I agree, there have been the two covenants since the beginning in Eden, two trees from which we chose to feed from.

The cross ratified the new covenant but it stretches from the beginning to the end.

We can see that many believers are still under the old covenant laws and because they sin, they suffer spiritual death but don't know it. It is only when we are crucified with Christ as a spiritual reality that we can enter into His rest.

I have been on Ron's forum and do not agree with his theology here.

 2014/9/5 3:15









 THE TWO COVENANTS AND THE SECOND BLESSING

Another very good book is THE TWO COVENANTS
AND THE SECOND BLESSING

BY ANDREW MURRAY

Read it online or download it free.

http://www.freerevivalcd.com/cdlive/murray/covenant.htm

 2014/9/5 6:10
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Rookie,

In Psalm 119:35-36 we read:

Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight. Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

Here we have the Psalmist delighting in the law after the inward man (if I may turn a phrase), but asking God to show him how to perform what is written. In my view this was Paul's testimony prior to being Born Again. He goes on to say, " Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness. " By inference, his heart was not rightly inclined. This is the pattern of the Old Covenant. The saints thereof were a remnant people; but that must not be confused with what is available under the New Covenant. In fact, as great a man as John the Baptist was, he that is least in the Kingdom of Heaven would be greater than he. How can this be? John the Baptist preached a kingdom that he, himself, was not yet in. That is the plain reading of the text. It was at hand (Matthew 3:2), but it was not yet.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luke 16:16)

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)



Based upon what your conception of Zac Poonen's teaching, I find what he is saying to be wholly true. John the Baptist announced the arrival of the Kingdom. This signaled the time of preparation for the coming of Messiah who would eventually lead to the possibility of a radical change in the nature of fallen men and women. The Old Testament is loaded with pictures of what God would do in the New Covenant. This includes a new heart and a new spirit.

Perhaps most importantly, the New Covenant creates a new race of men who are Born Again in Christ. We are in Adam by first birth and suffer all that his sin caused in the fall. You are aware of the teaching of original sin, so I will not expound. When Jesus told Nicodemas in John 3:3 that "you must be Born Again (born from above)" He was offering a possibility never before known to man. We were born by first birth in Adam; we are born again by New Birth into Jesus Christ, the last Adam.

In the same way that being in Adam effected mankind for evil; being born again into Jesus Christ affects us to the nature of the last Adam. As natural as it was to sin in Adam, it is natural to do righteousness for those in Christ. This was never available prior to Christ's death. Why? It was New. How could a person be "in Christ" whilst Christ walked the earth? How could they be baptized into His death when He had not died to Sin yet Himself? Our death to Sin, our being raised with Him, etc. are all aspects of the New Covenant. Nobody was in the New Covenant prior to Pentecost. It is impossible. It had not been made effectual or available.

Jesus is the one who spoke of the hardness of hearts. Zac Poonen is only taking up His claims. But this is only a portion of the story. They were of their father the Devil and the lusts of their father they did do. This was the problem with man. It is the diagnosis. (1 John 3:8-3:10) The Old Covenant could do nothing more than impose upon the people an institutional type law, with a view to correcting their behavior under the Adamic nature. It exposed their sinful nature, and quantified their sin. It made them very sin conscious. The Law was Spiritual, but men were carnal and sold under Sin. One cannot do with institutional law what can only be done by a change in a one's constitutional nature. It was a stop-gap measure until the Seed came to whom the promises were made (Galatians 3:19). These promises have been passed to us that we might be partakers of the Divine Nature. They were not given to those in the Old Covenant. This is the promise of the New Covenant.

I can send my dog to obedience school, and he may come home and act more civilized; but this is not a change of nature, it is the imposition of institutional law upon him. This is what the Old Covenant did for those under it. Nevertheless, God is bringing many sons unto glory. Prior to being born again, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Man has always fallen short of the glory of God, no matter how great he or she was. however, God is bringing many sons unto glory through the New Covenant. In Christ, the saying is fulfilled, "Let Us make man in our own image and likeness..." God wants children who partake of His Divine Nature. Not His omnipotence, omniscience, etc.; but His personality and character. This is what the New Covenant provides. It is New. It became available at Pentecost. It enabled mankind who had been born after the generations of Adam to be born again into the generation of Jesus Christ.




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Robert Wurtz II

 2014/9/5 8:50Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Robert,

Let us look into Psalm 119 as you have posted about the short comming of the individual who recognized that his heart was not right concerning covetousness.

As you stated the written law's purpose, is to condemn all under sin. The written law teaches the individual to recognize what is not right in ones heart. And as you have stated, the writer of the Psalm also recognizes that he cannot remove from his being that which afflicts him.

So after this individual comes to this conclusion, what does he do?

In Psalm 119:35-36 we read:

Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight. Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

He asks the Lord to change what he cannot achieve according to the flesh. Now how does the Lord answer his prayer, his calling on the Lord?


Psa 119:72
The law of Your mouth is better to me
Than thousands of coins of gold and silver.

Psa 119:73
YOD
Your hands have made me and fashioned me;
Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.


Psa 119:103
How sweet are Your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth!

Psa 119:104
Through Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.

Psa 119:145
QOPH
I cry out with my whole heart;
Hear me, O LORD!
I will keep Your statutes.


Paul's solution is the same as this man's above is it not?


Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


Both found the same Christ, the Word of God. And they both walked according to the direction of the Spirit of Christ and rejected the flesh.


Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


You see the writer of Psalm 119 also recognized this precept...

Psa 119:49
ZAYIN
Remember the word to Your servant,
Upon which You have caused me to hope.


And because the Lord spoke to him this promise he could truthfully say...


Psa 119:45
And I will walk at liberty,
For I seek Your precepts.



You have brought many different points up...this is how I understand the first part of your post.

As for the writer of Psalm 119. He will walk at liberty because the Lord has enabled him to do so through His Spirit.

Do you see the Spirit's work in Psalm 119?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2014/9/5 10:00Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Brother,

Quote:
Do you see the Spirit's work in Psalm 119?



I do, in as much as God's word has capacity to effect change in our behavior. However, the greatest extent to which what was available in the Old Testament is found is realized in the life of John the Baptist. He was even filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb. He had all of these things. Nevertheless, he/she who is least in the Kingdom is greater than he. A person who has access to the New Covenant has access to better promises and therefore there are greater possibilities.

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (Hebrews 8:6)

Had John the Baptist lived after Pentecost he would have had access to these greater promises contained in the New Covenant. He did the best with what he had. He did not know the New Birth. He preached about it coming; but never lived to experience it. The trouble was never with God's law. It was Spiritual. Man is carnal and sold under Sin. God dealt with man's Sin problem through the Cross. He makes that reality effectural to those who by one Spirit have been baptized into Chrit's Body. No one was "in Christ" before Christ came to earth (the incarnation). No one could be baptized into His death before He Himself died to Sin. Therefore, no one could experience being dead indeed unto Sin and alive unto God prior to being baptized into Christ by the Spirit. That reality alone sets the experience of Old Testament saints in a different category that those who are in the New Covenant.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2014/9/5 10:44Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

The writer of Psalm 119 was in the sphere of faith and hope.

"Remember the word to Your servant,
Upon which You have caused me to hope."

He would have been one of those who "died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off..." (Heb. 11:13).

"These all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Heb. 11:40).

What is the "better thing" God has now provided?

The New Covenant. "...A better covenant" (Heb. 7:22). "A better covenant, which was established upon better promises" (Heb. 8:6).

(Edited to include those last two references.)


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Allan Halton

 2014/9/5 11:02Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

I need to clarify what I said last time: "The writer of Psalm 119 was in the sphere of faith and hope."

So are we under the New Covenant; we too are in a sphere of faith and hope.

With a significant difference. They could not yet be made perfect. We can.

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a BETTER HOPE did, by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb. 7:19). That "better hope" is the inauguration of the New Covenant. Those under the old covenant did not have this available to them. Yet. (See Heb. 12:23.)

"These all, having obtained a good report through faith, receive not the promise: God having provided (or, foreseen) some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Heb. 11:39,40).


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Allan Halton

 2014/9/5 11:56Profile
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 Re:

It is amazing to me how Psalm 119 ends:

I have gone astray like a lost sheep;
Seek Your servant,
For I do not forget Your commandments.


Also that the focus of the Psalm is on the Scriptures and commands of God and not intimate relationship with God Himself. 2 Corinthians 3 is important that shows there is a difference between what God has doing in the Old Testament and New Testament.

One way to understand is that God was upon and covering sins in the Old Covenant but now through Jesus Christ He dwells "within" and "takes away" sins.

David was a man after God's heart but then committed murder, adultery etc and on his death bed had vegengance and anger towards his enemies. The new covenent calls us to love our enemies and anyone who is a murderer does not have eternal life in Him.

I want to encourage saints to listen to some of those messages on New Covenant as well as the recommended links in this thread of Andrew Murray and Ron Bailey, both excellent resources.



2 Corinthians 3 New King James Version (NKJV)

Christ’s Epistle
3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The Spirit, Not the Letter
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/9/5 12:58Profile









 Re:

Greg said

Quote:
I want to encourage saints to listen to some of those messages on New Covenant as well as the recommended links in this thread of Andrew Murray and Ron Bailey, both excellent resources.



I would just like to point out, that Murray and Bailey are not teaching the same thing.

Murray says (from the link supplied on this thread)

"As we proceed to study the two covenants in the light of this and other scriptures, we shall see how they are indeed the Divine revelation of two systems of religious worship, each with its spirit or, life-principle ruling every man who professes to be a Christian. We shall see how the one great cause of the feebleness of so many Christians is just this, that the Old Covenant spirit of bondage still has the mastery. And we shall see that nothing but a spiritual insight, with a whole-hearted acceptance, and a living experience, of all the New Covenant engages that God will work in us, can possibly fit for walking as God would have us do.

This truth of there being two stages in our service of God, two degrees of nearness in our worship, is typified in many things in the Old Covenant worship; perhaps nowhere more clearly than in the difference between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place in the temple, with the veil separating, them. Into the former the priests might always enter to draw near to God. And yet they might not come too near; the veil kept them at a distance. To enter within that, was death. Once a year the High Priest might enter, as a promise of the time when the veil should be taken away and the full access to dwell in God's presence be given to His people. In Christ's death the veil of the temple was rent, and His blood gives us boldness and power to enter into the Holiest of all and live there day by day in the immediate presence of God. It is by the Holy Spirit, who issued forth from that Holiest of all, where Christ had entered, to bring its life to us, and make us one with it, that we can have the power to live and walk always with the consciousness of God's presence in us."

So Bailey is saying that there was only the OC until Calvary and then there was the NC but Murray says that both existed from the beginning which is my position.

 2014/9/5 13:08





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