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aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: Corrupted Text

Hopefully a few links everyone will enjoy. In Jesus .A.

Alfred Edersheim Bible History Old Testament, plus to others ~ online. :-P

Examining the Septuagint:-
Dr Samuel Gipp describes the LXX:-here
Dr Jack Moorman discusses the Greek Septuagint:-here
Dr David Daniels writes about the Sept.:-here
Dr Edward F Hills - Septuagint examined:-here

This site sees all other bibles burning: here Large resourse, though.


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Eric John Sawyer

 2005/6/11 7:15Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: philologos

Quote:
But Christ read what was written. If it was written it must have existed and must have existed before the New Testament.



I'm not a stuborn fellow. At least I try not to be. I will look into this further.

What is great about this subject either way, the knowledge of this subject certainly puts to rest so many of the silly arguments of the Jewish Roots movement.

Claims like Jesus=Zeus, etc. are revealed as outlandish the second a person studies the early church texts and culture.

I have really had some problems with these folks and their misunderstanding of the Covenants. It can get to the point with some, that the cross itself doesn't mean to them what it means to me. You don't hear these folks preaching that Jesus came as the new lawgiver, who fulfilled the law of Moses and died to it, and that when we die with Christ, we also die to the old law.

I wonder if many here would enjoy a brand new thread on this subject?

Blessings,

RT

 2005/6/11 16:01Profile
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: Interesting

aeryck,

Found this interesting in one of your articles

THE SEPTUAGINT AND MESSIANIC PROPHECY

In an earlier paper, I indicated that the LXX weakened Messianic prophecy. At this writing I cannot find what I thought to be the source of that information. In contrast to this, Terence Brown, a strong defender of the Masoretic Text has written, "Before the incarnation of the Saviour the Jews held the Septuagint in high esteem, but after his birth and earthly ministry they turned against that version because it was used so effectively by Christians to demonstrate that the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament were fulfilled in the Person and Work of the Redeemer.

A little before the middle of the second century of the Christian era, Aquila, who had been a professing Christian, but was cast out of the Church for some misdemeanor (some say astrology), became a Jewish proselyte. Having then

- Page 12 -

learned the Hebrew language, he made a new translation of the Old Testament into Greek, in opposition to the Septuagint, translating many passages concerning the Messiah otherwise than they had been rendered by the LXX, so as to make it impossible to apply these passages to the Lord Jesus Christ. Not long afterwards, Symmachus, a Samaritan by birth, who became a Jew, then professed the Christian faith, then attached himself to the Ebionites (Judaizers who denied the deity of Christ), made another translation from the Hebrew into Greek. About the same time, Theodotion, who had once professed faith in Christ and afterwards became a Jew, produced yet another Greek version.

Jerome of Bethlehem, who saw these Greek translations of Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion, makes it quite plain that these men were Judaizing heretics, and that their versions were made out of hatred to Christianity.

Before the birth of Messiah the Jews used to observe a feast in memory of the translation of the Septuagint. Philo the Jew, who lived in the time of Caliqula the Roman Emperor, while the Apostles were fruitfully engaged in the preaching of the Gospel, tells us in his "Life of Moses" that to that time they kept a yearly feast in memory of the Scriptures having been translated into Greek by the seventy-two interpreters. After Philo's days, the Jews turned that feast into a fast, lamenting that such a translation had been made. As the version became more popular with Christians, it fell from favor with the Jews, who preferred to use a version which the Christians could not so easily apply to the Messiah.

As an example of their tampering with Messianic prophecy, in Isaiah 7:14 Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion departed from the rendering of the Septuagint PARATHIONS (Virgin) and substituted NEANIS, a term which may be applied to a young married woman.''

Gooding in commenting upon the revisions of the Septuagint says, "Now, laborious as is the work of eliminating revisers readings, it is of practical importance. The expositor who appeals to some LXX word or phrase must be sure that it was not introduced by a reviser after New Testament times. Thus the original Septuagint may hive been faithful in translating verses of Messianic prophecy, but this becomes marred by later revision.''

RT

 2005/6/11 16:10Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Terence Brown, a strong defender of the Masoretic Text has written, "Before the incarnation of the Saviour the Jews held the Septuagint in high esteem, but after his birth and earthly ministry they turned against that version because it was used so effectively by Christians to demonstrate that the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament were fulfilled in the Person and Work of the Redeemer.


This is my understanding too. That the LXX was far too useful a weapon for the Christians, and was ultimately decommissioned by the Jewish authorities, as you have quoted. The Jewish authorities decided, I guess, that the LXX had been hijacked and that it was not possible to regain control so they ditched it and did another one which was much less ambiguous.

My mind has been turning over some of these things today. A lot has been said about the switch from agape to phileo in John 21 but my understanding is that it is not possible to make this disctinction in Aramaic. Either John knew this was exactly what Christ meant and by inspiration adopted these words or Christ spoke them in Greek. Not many would opt for Christ's ministry being in Greek rather than Aramaic but his reading of 'recovery of sight to the blind' in a synagogue document has really set me wondering.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/6/11 16:28Profile
ReceivedText
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Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
My mind has been turning over some of these things today. A lot has been said about the switch from agape to phileo in John 21 but my understanding is that it is not possible to make this disctinction in Aramaic. Either John knew this was exactly what Christ meant and by inspiration adopted these words or Christ spoke them in Greek. Not many would opt for Christ's ministry being in Greek rather than Aramaic but his reading of 'recovery of sight to the blind' in a synagogue document has really set me wondering.



A really great thought here. I think it is very revealing that the Holy Ghost whom Jesus sent to be with us forever blessed the use of all languages for the preaching of the NT and the Kingdom to the world. Why would Jesus Himself have a problem with Greek? Wouldn't communicating truth be the new issue since He was the summation of the Hebrew lineage and Scriptures?

RT

 2005/6/11 17:30Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: Corrupted Text

RT & P:

I thought you guys were going to keep on ignoring me.

Have you checked the Edward F Hills link, I am reading him at the mo. and he has such a brilliant focus from the beginning.

He is determined that one have the correct focus so as to not make the same mistakes others have made. He looks deep into philosophies of the time and ofcourse the naturalist approach, that has led to much of the deleting and tampering, and far worse things. [acceptance of texts that were rejected by the Dean.] - that whole story is no more than catastrophic. Revision Revised is available at Bible For Today... plus the Defined King James Bible by Dr Waite...

I have Moorman's chart on my wall, it is pretty hair raising when listening to David Cloud, who sees all the problems as originating as a result of Rome's desire to preserve the Alexandrian Texts. I have another book, I cannot find anywhere on the net, written by two french women years back and they look at the Waldensians, and how they would come down from the Alps? and preach to the Catholics? they were persectuted.

There is so much about how the texts were preserved. The Holy Spirit needs to always be respected, not just following the paper trail, but following His hand.

I keep the one passage foremost in my mind...'it is expedient'...

I am going to have to speed up my reading programme if I am ever to keep up with you guys, go for it...I will read and catch up...good idea to move it to a new thread.

In Jesus,
.A.
:-P

ps. There is a good brother from Alabama on the threads, just arrived yesterday. preach_ish


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Eric John Sawyer

 2005/6/12 12:23Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Amen, brother. I work with inner-city youth and the director uses an NIV, so I use an NIV with them so we can say turn to page so and so. If I was the director, I would use KJV, but it is not an issue worth starting a debate about at the beginning of a summer ministry. But I agree, the NIV just doesn't have the same punch.

NIV readers are okay in my book if they believe in repentance and faith toward the Lord Jesus, I just invite people to study the evidence, regardless of where it leads. Most people are not willing to even compare verse for verse.


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Hal Bachman

 2005/7/2 0:18Profile





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