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 Re:

Quote:
the Anabaptists are praised here this forum but not so with George it seems he calls them a false sect

is it true the Anabaptist are a false sect ,,what does the forum think




"The Great Mystery Of The Great Whore Unfolded; And Antichrist's Kingdom Revealed Unto Destruction. In Answer To Many False Doctrines And Principles Which Babylon's Merchants Have Traded With, Being Held Forth By The "Professed Ministers, And Teachers, And Professors In England, Ireland, And Scotland, Taken Under Their Own Hands, And From Their Own Mouths, Sent Forth By Them From Time To Time, Against The Despised People Of The Lord, Called Quakers, Who Are Of The Seed Of That Woman Who Hath Been Long Sled Into The Wilderness. Also, An Invasion Upon The Great City Babylon, With The Spoiling Of Her Golden Cup, And Delicate Merchandise, Whereby She Hath Deceived The World And Nations; And Herein Is Declared The Spoiling Of Her Prey, In This Answer To The Multitude Of Doctrines Held Forth By The Many False Sects, Which Have Lost The Key Of Knowledge, And Been On Foot Since The Apostles' Days, Called Anabaptists, Independents, Presbyters, Ranters, And Many Others; Who Out Of Their Own Mouths Have Manifested Themselves Not To Be Of A True Descent From The True Christian Churches: But It Is Discovered That They Have Been All Made Drunk With The Wine Of Fornication Received From The Whore Which Hath Sitten Upon The Beast, After Whom The World Hath Wondered."

http://dqc.esr.earlham.edu:8080/xmlmm/loginB?XMLMMToc=E12877488C-000&XMLMMLanguage=English&XMLMMCollection=/earlham&XMLMMReturnURL=http://www.qhpress.org/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi%3Fname%3Dgeorge.fox

You will see from this great list in the above link that Fox was addressing specifically named men whose writings were published and concerning whom Fox took the view that they in all times were against the true Christian, whom Fox called "The Despised People of the Lord, Called Quakers". Incredible as it seems the quote is a title and not a doctrinal statement as such.

Fox appeared to hold to a supremacy of true believers which he did not call the body of Christ in the way we would today call true believers, but rather he called all true believers who were sanctified and living holy lives "Quakers" in keeping with the accusations levelled against him and his friends. He appears to have done this with no recognition for denominational affiliation as such. Fox was making of these few men and women the name "Quakers" whether they had themselves heard the expression or else conceived of it's meaning or not. I would say that this represents the height of arrogance by today's understanding and use of the term "Body of Christ" but who knows what it really meant to Fox or for that matter why he used that term "Quaker" instead of "Body of Christ" to denote true believers who were living holy lives. The reality is that whilst George Fox was an undoubted prophet in his day, he was also mistaken about some very important realities. What Fox was speaking about I believe is that remnant of believers in every age who are by the grace of God living a sanctified and holy life unto God and before men. Is it forgivable that Fox neither used that term or even the body of Christ to denote what he perceived as the persecution of all such godly men and women, in all denominations, in my view. He had the Scriptures and he could read. Why then he chose to identify and impute the meaning of "Quaker" as a legitimate description of sanctified believers I do not know beyond stating that to him at least in his day and experience of ministry who else would he identify with in practical and meaningful terms other than those who were called "Quakers" by those who were against them?

You also have to realise or take account of the fact that,"Quaker" was an insult and not a compliment at that time. The men and women Fox fellowshipped with called one another "Friends" in keeping with making a separation between those who agreed with the claim to a practical and real holy life, and those who did not. Or in other words it is a distinction between those who were enemies and those who were friends. I find Fox difficult as much as I admire him. I think he wilfully and knowingly provoked hostility by making statements in his preaching and pamphlets which were truly against all established religious traditions. This was especially directed at paid clergy and it is in this sense that he includes the Anabaptists.

 2014/8/25 9:33
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

thanks for the comments andrew and brenda ,,,im off to work have a blessed day i have a few more things to mention later on scince the thread is still active

 2014/8/25 15:04Profile









 Re:

I just put on the board a series of messages by Denny Kenaston entitled An Oral history of the Anabaptists. These messages are out of the SI archives. Denny, who passed away into God`s presence sometime ago, does an excellent job explaining who the Anabaptists are. I believe if one listens to these messages they will come to the conclusion that the Anabaptists were anything but heretics.

If anything the Anabaptist saints captured the true essence of following Jesus Christ even to the point of death.

Very good messages. This is not dry history. But this is food for the soul. Certainly messages that challenge us to follow Jesus Christ as radical disciples of him in this day.

Blaine

 2014/8/25 15:42









 Re:

Gary the Anabaptists were not a false sect. Brother please see the messages by Denny Kenaston posted on the board.

Blaine

 2014/8/25 15:45
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3448
Louisiana

 Re:

It would be of interest to read about the
persecution that the Quakers suffered
in New England at the hands of the
Puritans over doctrine and the Quaker's
refusal to abide by their many rules and
regulations.

It was the Quakers that conducted them-
selves in a Christlike manner, and the
Puritans that cast them into prisons, beat
them into a bloody pulp, and in some
cases condemned them to the gallows.

The King of England, who was no friend
of the Quakers demanded that they would
be released from prison, and there was an
outcry among the common people. After
suffering this terrible persecution and abuse
the Quakers refused to take vengeance
on these religious hypocrites, but put the
whole matter in the hand of God. Many
of these persecutors fell under the
judgement of God and died horrible deaths.

We praise God for the many godly puritans
that have blessed us with their writings
over the years, but the persecutors of
the Quakers held fast to the letter of the
law, but violently persecuted those that
were being led by the Spirit of God.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2014/8/25 17:41Profile
SteveHale
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 190
NSW Australia

 Re:

G'day Karl,
A good place to start with in regard to George fox is his Journal, here is the first chapter to wet your appetite:- http://www.strecorsoc.org/gfox/ch01.html

Blessings Steve


_________________
Steve

 2014/8/25 19:59Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

i was reading in foxs book The great mystery of the great whore unfolded; and Antichrist's kingdom ...

fox rebuked an indapendent paster for saying this ..........quote''' although there be the same spirit in all the saints that gave forth scripture , yet all the saints do not have the same inspiration of the spirit that the apostals and the prophets had , so as that they should be able to give forth INFALABLE TRUTHS , and imidatly dis cover the pure and clear will of god AS THE APOSTALS AND PROPHETS DID

FOX SAID .....in this he shows his ingorence of the spirit and of the holy ghost ,and him self is the fasle spirit that has gone out into the world

that was from page 35 of the book mentioned above

can any one see the problem with foxes teaching about the iner light and how he has elavated himself and others to the infalably prophetic and the bible as the rule and foundation of high revalation

i strugle when i hear christians say what fox has said here ,,we all rubuke and look down on the carsamatics today when they say stuff like this as apaling and how it opens the door to deception ,,and we see it hapen in frount of our own eyes ,,he also see cults like mormonism and sevnth day adventism suffer delusions from the same typ of belief in modern infalable prophecys that are claimed to have the same weight as scripture or more weight


i was thinking yestaday what did john weasly thing of fox and the quakers ,,,, well i looked and found that he was just as concerned and apaled as i was ill give some quotes from weasly .....

From The Life and Times of the Rev. John Wesley, Vol. II, by Rev. Luke Tyerman, viewable online:

Excerpt #1
Pp. 55-57:

“A Letter to a Person lately joined with the People called Quakers” [read this letter online here.] In answer to a Letter wrote by him.” 12mo, 20 pages. Wesley takes his account of Quakerism from the writings of Robert Barclay, and shows wherein the system differs from Christianity; namely—

1. Because it teaches that the revelations of the Spirit of God, to a Christian believer, “are not to be subjected to the examination of the Scriptures as to a touchstone.”

2. Because it teaches justification by works.

3. Because it sets aside ordination to the ministry by laying on of hands.

4. Because it allows women to be preachers.

5. Because it affirms that we ought not to pray or preach except when we are moved thereto by the Spirit; and that all other worship, both praises, prayers, and preachings, are superstitious, will worship, and abominable idolatries.

6. Because it alleges that “silence is a principal part of God’s worship.”

7. Because it ignores the sacraments of baptism and the Lord’s supper.

8. Because it denies that it is lawful for Christians to give or receive titles of honour.

9. Because it makes it a part of religion to say thee or thou,—a piece of egregious trifling, which naturally tends to make all religion stink in the nostrils of infidels and heathens.

10. Because it teaches that it is not lawful for Christians to kneel, or bow the body, or uncover the head to any man; nor to take an oath before a magistrate.

In his wide wanderings, Wesley met with numbers of friendly Quakers, of whom he speaks in terms of commendation; but their system was one which he abhorred, and, in his “[An Earnest] Appeal to Men of Reason and Religion” [read online here], he speaks of the inconsistencies of their community in the most withering terms. “A silent meeting,” said he in a letter to a young lady, “was never heard of in the church of Christ for sixteen hundred years.” And, [47] in one of his letters to Archbishop Secker, he remarks: “Between me and the Quakers there is a great gulf fixed. The sacraments of baptism and the Lord’s supper keep us at a wide distance from each other; insomuch that, according to the view of things I have now, I should as soon commence deist as Quaker.”[48]

[47] Wesley’s Works, vol. xii., p. 488.
[48] Ibid. vol. xii., p. 74.

Excerpt #2
P. 418:

“I am very far from being ‘quite indifferent to any man’s opinions in religion'; neither do I ‘conceal my sentiments.’ Few men less. I have written severally, and printed, against deists, papists, mystics, quakers, anabaptists, Presbyterians, Calvinists, and antinomians. An odd way of ingratiating myself with them! Nevertheless, in all things indifferent, but not at the expense of truth, I rejoice to please all men for their good to edification.[36]

[36] Methodist Magazine, 1779, p. 601.

Excerpt #3
On pp. 512-513, an excerpt from John Wesley shows that he viewed the Quakers as heretical – although he did not view them as negatively as some other groups:

In the year 1758, Wesley issued a remarkable volume of 246 pages, entitled “A Preservative against unsettled Notions in Religion.” In his Journal he says: “I designed it for the use of all those who are under my care, but chiefly of the young preachers.” In his brief preface, he observes: “My design, in publishing the following tracts, is not to reclaim, but to preserve: not to convince those who are already perverted, but to prevent the perversion of others. I do not, therefore, enter deep into the controversy even with deists, Socinians, Arians, or papists: much less with those who are not so dangerously mistaken, mystics, quakers, anabaptists, presbyterians, predestinarians, or antinomians. I only recite, under each head, a few plain arguments, which, by the grace of God, may farther confirm those who already know the truth as it is in Jesus.”…

The fifth piece [in Wesley's writings against heresies] is “A letter to a Person lately joined with the People called Quakers,” which Wesley first wrote in 1748. [This letter is described in detail, in Excerpt #1 above.]

Another excerpt, found here, that shows John Wesley’s disagreements with Quaker theology:

TO JOHN FRY [1]
CITY ROAD, January 1, 1791.

MY FRIEND, — The sum of what I said to you and to Dr. Hamilton was this: ‘I will revise that part of the Ecclesiastical History; and if I am convinced any of it is wrong, I will openly retract it.’ I have revised it again and again, but I am not convinced that any part of it is wrong; on the contrary, I am fully persuaded it is all the naked truth. What the Quakers (so called) are or do now is nothing to the purpose, I am thoroughly persuaded they were exactly such as they are described in this History. Your present summary exactly answers the account Barclay’s Apology given in the 135th page of the History. O be content! I love you well; do not constrain me to speak. I do not want to say anything of George Fox; but I hope he was stark mad when he wrote that medley of nonsense, blasphemy, and scurrility styled his ‘Great Mystery.’ [Click here for Part 1 of Fox's "Great Mystery", and click here for Part 2.] But I love and esteem you and many of the present Quakers; and am

Your real friend.

[1] In A Concise Ecclesiastical History, Vol. IV., chap. iv., is a history of the Quakers which says their first association was ‘composed mostly of persons that seemed to be disordered in their brains; and hence they committed many enormities which the modem Quakers neither justify nor approve. For the greatest part of them were riotous and tumultuous in the highest degree.’ Wesley had evidently talked the matter over with his Quaker friend John Fry and Dr. Hamilton. See letter of February 10, 1748.

 2014/8/26 2:34Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

oh blain in was realy asking a retorical qustion ,,fox said that in that quote of his book
fox said

In This Answer To The Multitude Of Doctrines Held Forth By The Many False Sects, Which Have Lost The Key Of Knowledge, And Been On Foot Since The Apostles' Days, Called Anabaptists, Independents, Presbyters, Ranters, And Many Others; Who Out Of Their Own Mouths Have Manifested Themselves Not To Be Of A True Descent From The True Christian Churches

 2014/8/26 2:36Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Gary wrote: can any one see the problem with foxes teaching about the iner light and how he has elavated himself and others to the infalably prophetic and the bible as the rule and foundation of high revalation re..... although there be the same spirit in all the saints that gave forth scripture , yet all the saints do not have the same inspiration of the spirit that the apostals and the prophets had , so as that they should be able to give forth INFALABLE TRUTHS , and imidatly dis cover the pure and clear will of god AS THE APOSTALS AND PROPHETS DID



It is necessary to understand exactly what Fox meant. He said that if we have the same Spirit as the apostles and prophets, then we will be inspired by the Spirit and know the truth as they did.This truth is directly given to us in our spirits by the Holy Spirit if He is within us. We should have this knowledge within (which cannot disagree with scripture) but which must be our confirmation of the truth.

Fox knew that all who call themselves believers, do not have this witness within and rely on their minds in interpreting scripture and look to others to interpret for them, and it is a lot more common than people think and explains why there is so much disagreement. Get together a group of believers who do have the Spirit, witnessed by whether they have like Fox and been in Paradise and restored to an uncorrupted state, then you will find agreement. Fox's persecuters were believers who would not accept his teaching on this.


The early Quakers were such a people and were in agreement from within and did not need any man to teach them once they were in the Spirit (we need teaching to get there).

By the time of Wesley however, the Quakers had lost their inner witness and Wesley, though he supported them at first, was correct in admonishing them and was noted for saying that they showed their hypocricy in the purchase of expensive bonnets to obtain the required style and at the same time plead for simplicity and economy. He did not live in the times where the witness of the holiness of the Quakers turned England upside down and we must not forget that even despite the much lower spiritual state of Quaker communities, he had lost quite a few of his members to them, which makes me think that he had more than an impersonal gripe against them.

His main gripe was concerning the sacraments and again, the Quaker position is badly misunderstood. They do believe in partaking of the elements but in a spiritual form not a physical one and the baptism is of the Spirit. The ten points that have been made, likewise show a very scant reading of Barclay's Apology with many misinterpretation and misunderstanding going on.

The Quakers arose at a time in history where many practises needed to be challenged and they must be understood according to the climate of the time. But their witness of holiness and message cannot be denied. They changed Britain totally and the influence is still there. Most of Christianity is still apostate and denies the power of God for deliverance from sin

 2014/8/26 3:29
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

brenda fox was crytal clear that he was rebuking the paster who had the idea that the saints do not posses the ability to have revalations of infalable truth as did the apostals
sister you dont need to try to twist what fox said ,the quote is there for all to see ,fox said what he ment and ment what he said ,and it is not obscure


sister in the list of things weasly said about the quakers ,he also commented clearly on fox and the book that we are right now geting our quotes from .....namely ;; The great mystery of the great whore unfolded; and Antichrist's kingdom ...
By George Fox

theres no need to hide the fact that john weasly called it blaspemey in his own words weasly said ;;;; I do not want to say anything of George Fox; but I hope he was stark mad when he wrote that medley of nonsense, blasphemy, and surrility styled his ‘Great Mystery.’ Definition of SCURRILITY


1

: the quality or state of being scurrilous


2

a : scurrilous or abusive language

b : an offensively rude or abusive remar

weasly had a high view of the athority of the writtern word but fox elavated iner revalation to the same level ,and it is plane to see in foxes writing

 2014/8/26 3:47Profile





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