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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Should Persecuted Christians Defend Themselves? By Michael Brown

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Gen 14:14
Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.

Gen 14:15
He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus.



Abram knew the times in which he lived. He prepared beforehand, in the event that he had to protect his family.


And what does Scripture say....


Gen 14:18
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

Gen 14:19
And he blessed him and said:

“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;

Gen 14:20
And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.


According to Scripture God was with Abram, both the Father and the Son.


Jesus is the same always there is no such division between the God of the OT and the NT.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2014/8/14 20:10Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5476
NC, USA

 Re:

Bear like Travis said there is a distinction between personal affronts and being overrun by madmen.


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Todd

 2014/8/14 20:25Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5476
NC, USA

 Re:

Thanks for posting that rookie


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Todd

 2014/8/14 20:27Profile
cryinthenite
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Joined: 2010/9/22
Posts: 71


 Re:

Bear you are right on this. We are only called to forgive.It does not come natural to flee and forgive and keep on forgiving.Let us choose to go with the high calling now so when the fighting starts God has those with a pure testimony. Jesus loves his enemies for such were we before we believed.

 2014/8/14 20:47Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 798


 Re:

Right persecution for the faith should not be met with retaliation.

Which is what Travis and I were saying.

 2014/8/14 21:44Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

If I understand the question here it is should a person defend himself, his family using violent means that could easily result in death of someone?

One can appeal to logic, another to history, another to Scripture all wrapped up in emotion and or conviction.

Does it not seem odd that given the diversity of opinions on this issue that one reads little how Christians succeeded in subduing their enemies while defending themselves with carnal weapons?

During the time of the Bolshevik revolution in Russia and later, Mennonites were victims of bandits led by Nestor Makhno that rode through their villages raping and killing as they went. Some decided the use of the sword was called for and justified. They did use it but they came to a tragic end.

In hindsight the people who survived the atrocities visited upon them, who returned good for evil are considered the heroes.

I am beginning to understand more deeply the truth of the statement made by Richard Wurmbrand: "If God wants you alive, no persecution can kill you." I would understand this to mean life, everyday living - if God wants me alive no cancer, no accident will kill me. Once my time here is finished God will allow anything to come my way to snuff out my life.

The Apostle Peter is an excellent example of this principle. He was imprisoned but delivered by an angel. Later he was crucified head down. God was not through with him at the time of his imprisonment; He had more work for him to do and once that was done, He stepped aside and allowed him to be ruthlessly killed.

My understanding...

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2014/8/14 23:12Profile









 Re:

Ginny,

Excellent post.

Blaine

 2014/8/14 23:28
Lordoitagain
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Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 605
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

This IS a perplexing issue... especially in light of what we are seeing in Iraq, but one thing comes to mind:

When the jews first declared genocide on Christians.... If Stephen had been armed and had murdered his asailants, amongst them was Saul who later became Paul... he would have aborted one of Christianity's greatest apostles. Likewise, when Saul was going from house to house pulling out Christians for genocide... if one of the "brothers" had defended his home and murdered Saul ... 14 books of the new testament would have been written by another chosen vessel... and the "hero" who obstructed God's plan in order to save his family? Where would he be?


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Michael Strickland

 2014/8/15 7:46Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

I’m baffled:
1. Why is “defending ourselves/loved ones” equated with doing violence to the other (the perceived threat)? Does that not impose an even greater risk of harm? People have a tendency to retaliate!

2. Why would the spiritual armour of God (Eph. 6:10ff) not be considered practical in real life? Is this not talking about POWER! (Note the word POWER in Eph 1:18-21)

Quote:
If America was attacked by Muslims who were conducting what they deem to be a holy war, I would fight back.


And yet, this is causing our brothers and sisters in Christ living in these nations to endure extreme suffering. Will we not be held accountable?

Could it be that God is using our “enemies” to humble our “side - as in the Old Testament Israel? It seems dangerous to assume that we are on God’s side in these matters, for in fact, we may be under his hand of judgment. What is the solution then – the best means of “defending” our own?


Quote:
Yet, if someone approached me on the street and struck me specifically because I was a believer, I would not strike back."


Are you sure?


Quote:
For some reason I don't think God will tell Obama exactly what to do.


It has been said that one of the worst forms of divine judgment is to let people have what they want. It is tempting to conclude that God is “asleep” or disengaged. But that’s a risky theology – is it not!!

Diane


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Diane

 2014/8/15 9:27Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Sister wrote:

"Does it not seem odd that given the diversity of opinions on this issue that one reads little how Christians succeeded in subduing their enemies while defending themselves with carnal weapons?"




Jos 2:10
For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Jos 2:11
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.




From Scripture we find that it all depends on what God is doing. We often compare ourselves to the Apostles yet the vast majority of saints are called to a different ministry.

Is it right to judge another's calling based on your interpretation of the Scriptures.

What of the men like David and Job, what was their calling, what did God require of them?




Job 29:7
“When I went out to the gate by the city,
When I took my seat in the open square,

Job 29:8
The young men saw me and hid,
And the aged arose and stood;

Job 29:9
The princes refrained from talking,
And put their hand on their mouth;

Job 29:10
The voice of nobles was hushed,
And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth.

Job 29:11
When the ear heard, then it blessed me,
And when the eye saw, then it approved me;

Job 29:12
Because I delivered the poor who cried out,
The fatherless and the one who had no helper.

Job 29:13
The blessing of a perishing man came upon me,
And I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.

Job 29:14
I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
My justice was like a robe and a turban.

Job 29:15
I was eyes to the blind,
And I was feet to the lame.

Job 29:16
I was a father to the poor,
And I searched out the case that I did not know.

Job 29:17
I broke the fangs of the wicked,
And plucked the victim from his teeth.



The calling of men differs from that of women, the calling of men differs between men, some are called to protect and break the fangs of the wicked.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2014/8/15 9:30Profile





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