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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus Mean This Literally?

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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:


Quote:
By you saying Jesus is using irony there one can argue you are committing eisegis, reading into the text what is not there.


True.
What example/parable, etc does Jesus provide to support your own interpretation, Oracio?

Quote:
My point was not that Christ was commanding them to carry swords to protect them from the Roman army, but in self-defense from other individual criminals who may want to kill them. It's like having a gun, baseball bat, knife or pepper spray to fend off someone trying to break into your home to kill you or your family.


What would be an example – from scripture, or from the testimonies of believers? In all my reading of testimonies/books written by believers encountering threats, I don’t see one example of this particular interpretation. Besides, this method only “works” if you are lucky enough to be more powerful or have an advantage. Again – it relies on power advantage - your own. And it is fear-driven.

Have any of you heard of the practice of de-escalation?

Diane




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Diane

 2014/8/9 11:28Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by Oracio on 2014/8/9 8:09:26

Sister Mary, I understand your point and where you are coming from. The only thing I'd say is that if there are people, including many children being beheaded and murdered by the masses it is our responsibility to weep with those who weep and to ask God to intervene on their behalf, just like the believers were fervently praying for Peter's well-being when he was put in prison.

_____________

I agree we do need to be in prayer and seeking GOD'S will on this. Prayer is the best weapon we could ever use in this battle.

God bless
maryjane

 2014/8/9 12:05Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2035
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I agree we do need to be in prayer and seeking GOD'S will on this. Prayer is the best weapon we could ever use in this battle.

God bless
maryjane


Amen. My main point here was that God sometimes uses certain powers that be for the restraining of such evils as we are seeing in Iraq and other places, and that type of restraining is something good we can pray for. God can easily restrain evil in this world by sending angels to wipe it out. But instead He chooses to allow much of it and sometimes uses governing authorities to restrain it. It seems some of us are against asking God to restrain certain evils by the governing authorities of this world.

The issue of self-defense and self-preservation is another somewhat related issue. I believe the Bible allows and teaches it in certain life-threatening circumstances. But I can respectfully agree to disagree.


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Oracio

 2014/8/9 12:23Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5343
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "Have any of you heard of the practice of de-escalation?"

It might work on a sane sober and reasonable person. Few people that invade your home in the middle of the night are any of these things.

I realize these are hypotheticals. Thank The Lord I have never personally had to deal with this situation.

But we have to talk about the situations because those are the type of situations where we have to decide whether we will use force to protect our family from great bodily harm. I believe we are charged by God to protect our families. What would Abraham, isaac, Jacob or David had done if someone tried to harm their family. I recall Abraham giving chase to recover by force those who were kidnapped. Was God pleased? Yes. He sent the priest Melchizedek.

Diane I am curious what your response would be if a crazed individual invaded your home?


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Todd

 2014/8/9 14:27Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Diane I am curious what your response would be if a crazed individual invaded your home?



I have no idea!


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Diane

 2014/8/9 14:56Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
But we have to talk about the situations because those are the type of situations where we have to decide whether we will use force to protect our family from great bodily harm. I believe we are charged by God to protect our families.



Let me share a true testimony: A Christian man was walking down a city street when he noticed a young woman being dragged into an alley. Suddenly it became evident that she was pinned against the wall with a weapon in her face. The Christian found himself racing to the scene. He stood between the woman and the criminal – and yelled, “Don’t kill her, take me!” The would-be murderer dropped his gun.

Now this Christian had a young family depending on him – but, of course, that didn’t enter into his mind as he raced to the scene. This incident happened when he was a young man. Now he is a pastor, and uses this story to inspire his parishioners to trust God and NOT use weapons of harm.

There are two powerful instincts which drive every human being when they perceive a threat: fight or flight. It's the natural fear response.

When we extract a scriptural interpretation which supports our lower animal-like instincts – to attack or run – we need to check out our rationale: Is it from God or from instinct. Is it faith driven or fear driven?

Fleeing is often the right response to danger - as we often read in missionary stories. (You don't hurt anyone in doing so). But so far in this discussion, the choice-of-the-day seems to be the "attack" response. I wonder why.

Diane



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Diane

 2014/8/9 15:13Profile









 Re:

Diane thank you for sharing the story of the young man who put himself between the attacker and his victim. For this testimony shows that there is another way to resist evil without the use of carnal weapons.

Indeed none of us know what we would do in a life or death situation. And I honestly pray we never have to find out. But if Jesus said do not prepare in advance what you will say to your persecutors but that he would give us the words to say. I trust if we find ourselves in a life or death situation the Holy Spirit will prompt us to do the right thing.

Blaine

 2014/8/9 16:06









 Re:

I believe when Jesus said do not resist an evil person and we are to love our enemies does not mean that we sit idly by and see others come to harm. But to protect others does not mean that one has to carry a firearm. I believe the story Diane shared illustrates that one can save another from harm without the use of a firearm.

My thoughts.

Blaine

 2014/8/9 16:12
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5343
NC, USA

 Re:

Sure, anything might work. The question is what will usually work.

We must distinguish hoping from planning.


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Todd

 2014/8/9 16:45Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

brother blain im not talking about using a gun on somebody ,, i dont own a gun im just talking about defending the weak in our care tho im a trained bowhunter and have bows and arrows ,i would not think about useing that type of extream force to stop some body ,,and im talking about a christian who is a police officer of a soilder ,doing his job with a clear concenience to defend the counntry god has placed him in for the sake of weaker and inocent ,,,im not taling about defending my own neck from jehadists in na pesonal scence when in the mission field ,or if the took over australia ,,i see that as compleatly another cotext in which the bible teaches we should be will to die for

 2014/8/9 17:55Profile





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