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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus Mean This Literally?

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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5339
NC, USA

 Re:

Bear I am curious what you think Jesus meant when he said not to resist an evil person? I mean what do you think he was talking about?


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Todd

 2014/8/8 23:43Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2023
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Regarding the passage in Matthew 5 about not resisting an evil person, I believe our Lord is referring to insults or injuries that are not life-threatening. We must consider the whole counsel of God here, especially and particularly the New Testament. In Luke 22:37-38 our Lord told the disciples to continue carrying the two swords they had already been carrying. Swords were carried for protection against murderers.

I'll share part of Matthew Henry's "insights" :) on that passage here as I think he breaks it down pretty good:

"II. What the New-Testament precept is, as to the complainant himself, his duty is, to forgive the injury as done to himself, and no further to insist upon the punishment of it than is necessary to the public good: and this precept is consonant to the meekness of Christ, and the gentleness of his yoke.

Two things Christ teaches us here:

1. We must not be revengeful (v. 39); I say unto you, that ye resist not evil;—the evil person that is injurious to you. The resisting of any ill attempt upon us, is here as generally and expressly forbidden, as the resisting of the higher powers is (Rom. 13:2); and yet this does not repeal the law of self-preservation, and the care we are to take of our families; we may avoid evil, and may resist it, so far as is necessary to our own security; but we must not render evil for evil, must not bear a grudge, nor avenge ourselves, nor study to be even with those that have treated us unkindly, but we must go beyond them by forgiving them, Prov. 20:22; 24:29; 25:21, 22; Rom. 12:7. The law of retaliation must be made consistent with the law of love: nor, if any have injured us, is our recompence in our own hands, but in the hands of God, to whose wrath we must give place; and sometimes in the hands of his viceregents, where it is necessary for the preservation of the public peace; but it will not justify us in hurting our brother to say that he began, for it is the second blow that makes the quarrel; and when we were injured, we had an opportunity not to justify our injuring him, but to show ourselves the true disciples of Christ, by forgiving him.

Three things our Saviour specifies, to show that Christians must patiently yield to those who bear hard upon them, rather than contend; and these include others.

(1.) A blow on the cheek, which is an injury to me in my body; "Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek," which is not only a hurt, but an affront and indignity (2 Co. 11:20), if a man in anger or scorn thus abuse thee, "turn to him the other cheek;" that is, "instead of avenging that injury, prepare for another, and bear it patiently: give not the rude man as good as he brings; do not challenge him, nor enter an action against him; if it be necessary to the public peace that he be bound to his good behaviour, leave that to the magistrate; but for thine own part, it will ordinarily be the wisest course to pass it by, and take no further notice of it: there are no bones broken, no great harm done, forgive it and forget it; and if proud fools think the worse of thee, and laugh at thee for it, all wise men will value and honour thee for it, as a follower of the blessed Jesus, who, though he was the Judge of Israel, did not smite those who smote him on the cheek," Micah 5:1. Though this may perhaps, with some base spirits, expose us to the like affront another time, and so it is, in effect, to turn the other cheek, yet let not that disturb us, but let us trust God and his providence to protect us in the way of our duty. Perhaps, the forgiving of one injury may prevent another, when the avenging of it would but draw on another; some will be overcome by submission, who by resistance would but be the more exasperated, Prov. 25:22. However, our recompence is in Christ's hands, who will reward us with eternal glory for the shame we thus patiently endure; and though it be not directly inflicted, it if be quietly borne for conscience' sake, and in conformity to Christ's example, it shall be put upon the score of suffering for Christ."


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Oracio

 2014/8/9 0:11Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

it always bites me when i hear people elevate one part of Scripture out of biblical context like the sermon on the mount ,,as if it can be pitted against the rest of scripture or it becomes the lever to twist the rest of scripture in to agreement ,,,;like blain has done ,,,blain have you sold all your possessions yet and given it all to the poor like Jesus said in a certain sermon

in the same chapter Jesus said do to others as you would have them do to you

who would liked to be helped if a group of rapist was try to sodomize you or your wife ,,would you like god to send some one to you aid in answer to you prayer ,,then do the same to you neighbor if you see him in trouble love your neighbor as you self ,and treat him as you would want to be treated ,,dont dare sit on you hands and watch ,,

can god protect supernatural a person or his Christian family yes ,but does he always use that method NO ,LOOK AT SCRIPTURE ,,, the governments are also god ministers,, exacting judgment and protection as oraco posted ,,in Romans

i think it is cowardly to not protect the Innocent , and hypacalvinict to say god is souvern so we can sit on our hands ,,if my neighbors child is abducted in front of me ,and i shrink back and do nothing and the child is murdered,,i say well god is sourven he did nothing so it is gods will ,WHAT UTTER BALONY thats blasphemy

god answers the prayers of the afflicted and persecuted in may different ways ,,it might just be through you one day

pray that we may led a quite an peacfull life said paul and contribute to that desire if the opatunity arises ,rather then condem those who unselfisly do

 2014/8/9 3:31Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

Romans 12:17-21 (New Revised Standard)
View In My Bible
















Romans 12:17-21 (New Revised Standard


17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

i think we all can agree with most paul said here what ever side you sit one pasifest or not

but one verse here is one that changes the thrust of this message 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.

what are the implications of this verse ,,cleary the [IF IT IS POSSIBLE ] effects the whole context and general outcome of apling this scripture to our life

the pasifests will say it is allways possable to live a quite and peacefull life ,,but the bible says only if it is possable ,showing that there will be or there might be times when it will not be posable or even times that will be imposable to live peaceably with some men ,,,,perioud full stop ,,,,,

now we can talk about exacty what we think paul is talking about ,regarding what excacly could arise in a christians secular life that would be concidered an example of what paul had in mind ,,,and was he speaking in asecular or spirtual context ,,as a church ,or as a citazen of a state ,or as a secular office like a centurion or somthing similar a temple gaurd ,,,but to deni what paul has said is dishonest to the text ,blind exagesius

what does paul mean or is he even sugestsing that there may be more then one reason to not be able to live peacable with all men

how do we tie this in to chapter 13 the following verses with out forgeting this one verse


any one have any thoughts

 2014/8/9 4:34Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5339
NC, USA

 Re:

Amen Gary and Oracio.

Good 'ol Matthew Henry!


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Todd

 2014/8/9 6:17Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus would have protected the child in my hypothetical any way He could. He would not have simply stood by and watched.


So then: the only two alternatives are aggression and passivity?
Something is terribly wrong with this theology!!

Quote:
…the passage in Matthew 5 about not resisting an evil person, I believe our Lord is referring to insults or injuries that are not life-threatening.


This manner of Biblical interpretation is called isogesis – putting INTO the text – as opposed to exegesis. It’s putting into the text the interpreters own presuppositions and self-justifications.

Quote:
How is it loving to your family to allow them to be killed or whatever if it is in your power to stop it?


“Allow”?? This statement itself expresses the language of power. Who has the power to “allow” anything? This is not the language of the oppressed – but the language of those on the side of power. Consider how Jesus responded to Pilate.


Quote:
We must consider the whole counsel of God … In Luke 22:37-38 our Lord told the disciples to continue carrying the two swords they had already been carrying. Swords were carried for protection against murderers.


I don’t think so! Imagine going after a Roman legion with 2 swords! It’s a joke! It’s like carrying around a water pistol. Imagine a Chinese believer today who is being chased by the authorities. He is carrying a “sword” in case he gets caught by an armed guard. How much hope is there for him if he kills the fellow chasing him? There are 10 million more enemies in the sidelines.
Is Jesus not using irony here to get his point across?

Quote:
Romans 13:3-5 … you must be subject….

So God appoints certain "moral" governing authorities for the restraining of evil in this world. ...



Jesus and also Paul were speaking to Jewish audiences under Roman occupation (hardly a moral gov’t!) In 70 AD many of these Jews disobeyed this very caution and rose up against the Romans. You know the outcome!
The reason for being “subject” to the ruling authorities, (avoid resisting them with power strategies) is for your good. Vengeance has a nasty way of falling back on you. Leave vengeance to God. THAT is a biblical truth.

It’s amazing how much vengeance and power mongering happens in the name of “self-defense”.
Anger and fear are the driving motives – and these motives have no brakes – even among the “people of God”. History proves it to be true.

Diane



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Diane

 2014/8/9 8:18Profile
roadsign
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 Re:

Quote:
what would you say about Hitler and Nazi Germany? Was it wrong to go to war against him to stop the massive genocide of Jews and others and the taking over of the world by him?


Here we have the classic justification for war. But this argument fails to take into account the myriads of failures and unbiblical principles that preceded this crisis. Consider how Germany was treated after WW1 by the Allies. Hardly forgiveness! Instead, Germany was put under an enormous debt which kept them paralyzed. Why would they NOT rise up against their oppressors … eventually - when given the chance.

That’s the problem with aggression: Eventually it bites back. “Winning” can prove to be very costly down the road.

Diane




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Diane

 2014/8/9 8:31Profile









 Re:

Diane I believe you are articulating more clearly than I the New Testament teaching of non resistance. I prefer this term over pacifism. For it is clear that Jesus teaches non resistance to evil in Mat.5:39. That we are not to resist an evil person. In the following verses He even says we are to love our enemies and pray for them.

But why are we to do this. Because we are citizens of another kingdom. I will develope that thought in another post. But Mary Jane reminded us in her earlier post that to not resist an evil person, to love our enemies, and and pray for our enemies is to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. Indeed in Luke 6:55-56, the shorter account of the Sermon on the Mount, JESUS says, love for our enemies brings reward and testifies of our sonship to the Father. Indeed love for our enemies confirm we citizens of His kingdom.

Blaine

 2014/8/9 8:50
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by Oracio on 2014/8/8 20:16:03

So bear, what would you say about Hitler and Nazi Germany? Was it wrong to go to war against him to stop the massive genocide of Jews and others and the taking over of the world by him?

___________

I know this was address to bear but I just wanted to add we did not go to war against hilter because he was killing the Jews. We entered WWII because our interests were attacked in Pearl Harbor. In fact the US was asked to help before Pearl Harbor but resisted getting involved until after we were attacked. I don't think you can say the US went into WWII with the motive to protect the Jews.

God Bless
maryjane

 2014/8/9 8:59Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

we may be of a heavenly country ,,but we are still sojourners if you dont love and protect your wife like Christ did the church and lay down your life ,not one hair on the head of the disciples was harm during the appointed time ,,,if your not willing to die to protect your wife and children to save them if your not willing to give up your own life for our neighbors children ,that you baby siting or minding and you let some harm come to them wile under your care ,we are worse then an infidels ,we are reasonsable to provide safety and protection for those who cant do that

that is our moral duty as a human being ,and we should support and pray for our police and soldiours that are gods ministers who preform his duties

Jesus said love our neighbors ,,not let them be raped and murdered ,beaten ,,he hasn't said that any where in the bible ,,it make me sick to hear ,,i hope noby ever leave there children in you care , blain ,,you need to warn people what sort of beliefs you have before you mind there children ,,or make you mind up to protect them with your life or die trying ,,,,,if we want to let our selfs be beaten and raped go for it brother ,,but ill probably start to defend my self if some body trys to rape me , ill turn the other cheek but not that cheek No sir ,,,and i wont force another to turn there cheek , or expect them to take that in front of my eyes ,weather they are a believer of not ,,,if i get permission from another Christian to let a sinner beat them up for being a Christian or cut the head of for there witness of Christ ,by gods grace let all our heads roll for the sake of Christ in the context of our Christian witness when that time comes but till them we are still in this world ,and should contribute the minimum requirements of a human being ,and provide safety to those who cant provide that for them self ,and not cast away those important expressions ,for the sake of thinking we are more spiritual if we do , we become hypocrites in our own count ryes ,loving the peace and safety and security of our god given place of birth and not willing to contribute or at least sport those who are willing to in danger there own lives protect the weak and vulnerable ...

 2014/8/9 9:28Profile





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