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 Farewell To Thee!

Quote:
That is why I will no longer be participating in these forums



Wow, I am thinking strongly in that direction as well, just be like the rest that come to this site strictly an observer. And if I have anything to say, I would email that individual or PM, it's not worth the harressment if you say the wrong thing.

Oops I shouldn't have wrote that much.

Take care

Karl

 2005/4/21 22:38
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Farewell To Thee!

Am also a bit concerned.

What exactely are you guy's alluding to specifically? Compared to the last couple of month's there... I am not following here.

Also, wouldn't it be better to try and be of some help?

?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/4/21 23:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
What exactely are you guy's alluding to specifically? Compared to the last couple of month's there... I am not following here.



Yes things have improved...like many here i was very concerned and began praying in earnest for sermonindex. However (and I can only speak for myself), the divisiveness that i am speaking of is more subtle. The subjects that are chosen; the desire to set ourselves against other groups...etc (of course this is merely my perception).

Quote:
Also, wouldn't it be better to try and be of some help?



Yes and no. Ideally yes...as a member of a church it is best to be of help. In this case I'm not sure - and praying about it. But I'm not sure help is wanted...the topics that interest are what concern me...that discussion seems so often to be focused on 'heresy' and so often targeting individuals with little more than criticism.

I imagine others will disagree with me...and that's ok. I will continue to pray about it - I've been known to be wrong before.

Please don't misunderstand me...I am so grateful for resource that Sermonindex is.

 2005/4/22 0:43
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Reading...

Did anybody happen to read the link that was provided by Chanin at the beginning of this post?

That is not an accusation.

Quote:
I couldn't agree with you more. I am saddened that a website like this has turned into what it has. That is why I will no longer be participating in these forums. In the past I have referred people to this site, now I'm not sure I will be doing that anymore. You hit the nail on the head when you said if we have concern we need to go to God on behalf of those we are concerned with. Anything less than that is not Christ-like. Jesus demonstrated one thing at the cross, and that was forgiveness and mercy.



Well there is still a couple more things to take into consideration here brother. One is longevity, there are some here who have been with this site for a long time and some of these topics have a bit of history to them. Another is 'tone'(percieved) and a want of patience with each other. Certainly the forum has grown and is growing but a bit of exploring back through the many many posts here will show a wide range of thought as it pertains to this life. I wonder openly how much is being read and chewed on and if we are being good Bereans with everything...

To be challenged is not an affront to be attacked and a questioning of our particular reasoning is helpful if we will let it be. How else are we to learn? The mean spirited and divisive for the sake of being divisive does stem from a sense of pride and self-worth and there is no place for mere snipping and backbiting of one another.
Quote:
You hit the nail on the head when you said if we have concern we need to go to God on behalf of those we are concerned with. Anything less than that is not Christ-like. Jesus demonstrated one thing at the cross, and that was forgiveness and mercy


A bit unsure how you may be referring that but it seems we must always go to extremes. Are we only hearing what we want to hear? And are we only going to apply the principle of 'love one another' when it's comfortable to do so? It does work out in the opposite direction, when you must confront things that are uncomfortable, it is much easier to apply that principle then especially when it goes against the grain of your particular make up.

There seems to be a danger in making assumptions in an either/or construct. One of the beauties of this ongoing discussion around here on so many different matters is the challenge to think deeply and to 'find out if these things are so'.
Have learned so much, a great deal from the harder things expressed oftentimes than the more readily agreeable. Have been challenged on the idea of a false pride, a false humility, in softening things that ought not to be softened and just as well as toning down the rhetoric when it is but rhetoric, surely a long way to go and that is in truth, not in cliché'.

We would have a hard way of explaining away so much from scripture when it comes to 'hard things'. Paul, Peter, Titus to name a few had strong admonishions towards a number of things, they didn't couch their words to please men nor to Lord it over anyone or exalt themselves, again it's not a badge to wear, perhaps a cross to bear.

I know there can be a penchant toward comparing ourselves with ourselves, that we ought not do and just as well towards measuring our response by a siding with a particular apostle...[i]Well, Paul was harsh about...[/i] But he also grieved over the things he had to say oftentimes. There has to be a balance to all this and indeed a searching of ourselves as if in a mirror...

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, [b]first[/b] cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and [b]then[/b] shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

[b]Mat 7:3 - And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye?[/b].... By "mote" is meant, any little bit of straw, or small splinter of wood, that flies into the eye, and does it damage, hinders its sight, and gives it pain; and designs little sins, comparatively speaking, such as youthful follies, human frailties, and infirmities, inadvertencies and imprudencies; which may be said to be light faults, in comparison of others: and though not to be vindicated, nor continued in, yet not to be severely looked upon and chastised. To scrutinize diligently into, aggravate, dwell upon, and sharply reprove the lighter faults of others, is a conduct, which is here inveighed against, and condemned by Christ; and more especially, when it may be said with the greatest truth and justice to such,

[b]but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye:[/b] by the "beam" is meant, greater sins, grosser abominations, and such as were more peculiar to the Pharisees; as pride, arrogance, a vain opinion of themselves, confidence in their own righteousness, hypocrisy, covetousness, and iniquity; things they did not advert to in themselves, when they loudly exclaimed against lesser evils in others. Such men must be of all persons inexcusable, who condemn that in others, which either they themselves do, or what is abundantly worse.

John Gill


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/4/22 0:54Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: time out

After reading the article on pride I can only conclude that I am prideful. It's really awful.

Quote:
Thanks, more of Him for this post. I couldn't agree with you more. I am saddened that a website like this has turned into what it has. That is why I will no longer be participating in these forums.

Amen. I have felt the same way. As I have prayed for SermonIndex I have grown increasingly concerned.


Regarding self-expulsion from SI, I think the real answer might just be some time away. A single week did the trick for me...I found that my regard for the people in here is more enduring then my regard for whatever important opinion or position I was concerned about. Even though most of us are faceless to one another, I actually care about the people in here! I'm thankful that people don't take me too serious.

Writing is much more volatile then speaking because we are liable to project our own fragile emotions onto each others words. I think any forum, not just SI, is going to be like the inside of a nuclear reactor. Peoples' emotions are being split open by the words that are bouncing around in these walls...then in turn more words are written and more emotions are split. Now and then the whole thing threatens to overheat unless it is moderated by some intervening person who brings stability to the mixture. In normal face to face conversations, things have a harder time heating up because we can read each other much more readily.

Considering this, I think SI is a fairly heathly place. I would kindly suggest taking a week off before banning yourself! However if you feel it is right for you to leave then don't leave angry. Go with God!

Blessings


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/4/22 1:14Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 please do

Hey Stephen,

Quote:
But I'm not sure help is wanted...


Help wanted! Apply here! :-)

I do understand your sentiments and know that certainly many and Greg especially appreciate your prayers for this place. We could use some balance, there is so much here to learn and grow from, so many different areas to explore, certainly much that is edifying.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/4/22 1:20Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Writing is much more volatile then speaking



Thanks Mike,

If that isn't the truth...
All this, well said.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/4/22 1:26Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3233
Texas

 Re:

I feel any forum anywhere of any type unless you actually know the person and have spoken with them personally, you can't even begin to really figure out anyone's post or their heart or if it is just a good healthy debate or actually criticizing . I will be honest with you I left my recent Bible Study because of the debates although not heated I just "personally" don't like getting into even warm debates over the Word of God, yes I miss it very much but I felt it was not healthy for my spirit for a person between the milk and meat so I made the decision to leave. I personally have corresponded in personal messages to many in this forum even the ones that when I first joined were, I thought critical and found them to be good folks and all they sincerely want to do is bring certain things out of the dark into the light, and I am ok with that because I don't feel this is being critical that maybe God does have this person here for this reason and some of us that may be in the dark about certain things and can be made aware. I Love this place and I personally feel that God has ministered to me and many others here through many different people "in many different ways" what we all must remember is Satan is going to keep the stick stirring here, that is his job and he does his job very well "believe me" and the only way to defeat him is to keep the debates healthy, and if for some reason you feel that some post is getting critical, I would just not participate in it and maybe if anything kick back and just read it then if you disagree you have posted nothing so that keep you free and out of the fire and keeps old slue foot at bay. I feel God wants everyone that is here "HERE" or you would have never found this place, so are we going to let old Satan defeat up by cutting and running? or are we the children of the most High God? and stay and spread the good news and just put on the full armor of God, because satan has already been defeated at the Cross.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2005/4/22 1:33Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re:

Sometimes it hurts if someone is right about an issue that is close at heart, but that is what growing is all about. If we never have a disagreement on anything, and that is how I see these things at SI, we would be in a perfect place. If everybody was exactly the same in appearance, mindset, etc. this would be a perfect place. I would have liked to hear Peter and Paul "disagree", maybe most of us would have disagreed with one of them, or ?? If you have been annoyed, hurt, pricked, or downright angry at any of my comments please feel free to send me an e-mail or a PM or blast me on this page, but as MrBillPro writes, don't run, you'll just find it staring you straight in the face somewhere else. If that happens, please consider, maybe you yourself was the problem.
Don't let anger or any of its cousins get hold of you nor grow inside, it tends to make one blind.
Feel free to disagree. With blessings.
jouko


_________________
Jouko Hakola

 2005/4/22 6:06Profile









 Re:

Since I seem to be a bit of a lightning rod in this place at times, I guess I should chime in here some...

As stated earlier, if you go back thru the posts you will notice (if you want to notice), I have come against false [b]doctrines[/b], and not necesarily false teachers. We are commanded by scripture to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jud 1:3.

This is not a suggestion. This is an exhortation. But in this day and time of the church, because of a lack of seperation (2Co 6:17) we have seen the flood gates opened for all kinds of strange doctrines to come into the church. Some are subtle little doctrines, some are gross heresy.

Some say "well, doctrine is hardly worth fighting over... we should love one another". I disagree and so does scripture when it exhorts us to "[b]earnestly[/b] contend for the faith.

This should not be construed as fighting in a mean spirited way. Thats not what Paul meant. I personally believe that if there is gross heresy going on, we should expose it. If the practitioner of the heresy refuses to listen... then we are to shake the dust off our shoes... and [b]seperate[/b] from them. (Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.)

But what doctrines should we seperate from? Tongues? Well, let me put it to you this way... I will fellowship with Charismatics to a certain extent. I know many who are saved. I was one when i was first saved. However, I rejected most Charismatic doctrines. I personally believe the gift of tongues exists today... but not in the fashion we see it expressed 90% of the time today. But I know many who practice it, but they are saved. However, I will not sit under Charismatic teacher. Because of tongues? No... because of some of the other heresies that often times are part and parcel of a Charismatic teacher.

I know many saved people who use modern versions. I will certainly fellowship with them as well... but I will not sit under a teacher who teaches out a modern version. But I know without a doubt many true believers in Christ use them. I'm not judging their salvation.

BUT... if anyone is still reading this... the doctrines that we should completely and wholly seperate from are doctrines that twist the doctrine of salvation. And this is probably what is causing this thread right here.

Many people have an emotional response to the death of John Paul II. I have spoken out against the Catholic Church in recent days. It's been in the spotlight, and so what better time to discuss it? I have been critizised for doing so. But the Catholic Church is no church at all... and it does not teach the scriptural doctrine of salvation one iota. And anyone who says they do, I have to wonder if they even know the first thing about the RCC. Is this a critizism of people? NO! It's a critizism of an institution.

Anyone who reads the Catholic Catacism, the Council of Trent, Vatican II, and the writings of John Paul II can not in anyway come away from it believing the Catholic Church is "just another denomination".

You may disagree with me... and thats ok. It doesnt hurt my feelings. But this is an incredible conviction that I have. I see that we are in the end times... and we are told that in the end times many many people will be seduced and deceived.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

We see this coming to fruition in the church today. If someone can not see this... they must be blind. So people like myself research different "sects" doctrines, and issue warnings.

In this day of hyper-sensitivity and political correctness... warnings about such groups is considered "hateful" by many.

We're told we're judging, and that we ought not to judge. (Interesting that we get judged as being hateful.) But what does scripture say about judging?

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

1Co 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

We should judge what we are being taught. We should judge the teachings of those who come to us preaching another gospel (the RCC). We should judge everything agaisnt the Word of God.

What we should not judge is out [b]brothers[/b]. Music is a good example. Some believe God uses rock music. Some believe He doesnt. While I do have some issues with CCM from the stand point of ecumenism and secular ownership of every Christian music label... I will not judge anyone who listens to CCM. And I will not judge anyone who is convicted that it's all of the devil.

We can not judge someone's salvation. We can question it privately to that person if we do not see any fruit and they have sin in their life... but the motivation should always be to see them either saved or restored... which ever the case may be.

So ... to end this epistle :-P ... to those who wish to leave, we cant stop you. But I would like to ask that instead of being offended by the warnings that are issued on this site about the RCC, WOF, or whatever... judge our words to see if what we say is true.

For instance... on three different threads about the RCC I spoke out strongly (but not nearly as strong as Charles Spurgeon did 100 years ago!), and some came to it's defense. So I posted the anathemas of the Council of Trent and asked everyone to read it, and then defend the RCC's teachings. [b]The threads died![/b] I have never gotten a response after that. I can only conclude two things... no one can defend it after they read that, or no one read it and just went away mad.

People... we do need to judge. But judge what we say. Judge what your taught. We all have Bibles. It's there to help us judge what we hear.

Too many times people dont want to discuss what is being warned about... they just want to shout "you're mean!" or "you offended me". Dont get offended... weigh what I say and see if I'm right or wrong. I'v been corrected on this website several times. I didnt get offended... I rejoiced that God revealed yet again another truth into my life.

Krispy

 2005/4/22 7:35





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