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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Paul Washer: Doctrine of Man, Does man have 2 natures or just 1

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deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1676
Hemel Hempstead

 Paul Washer: Doctrine of Man, Does man have 2 natures or just 1

Man's 2 Problems: The Condemnation & Power of Sin
(God's Solution: Justification & Regeneration)

Some people explain it this way. You have two natur
es. It is as though you are
schizophrenic. According to Scripture there is onl
y one person who has ever had two
natures. That’s Jesus Christ. He had a divine natu
re, a human nature and one person.
The Bible doesn’t speak of two natures in the belie
ver. Ezekiel does not say, “I will put a
heart of flesh beside your heart of stone.” He doe
sn’t say, “I will put a new heart beside
your old heart and they two can fight.” He says, “
I’ll take out your old heart and I will
put in a new heart.”

Paul Washer

This is one of the doctrines that Paul Washer preaches that worries me as if you do not have a sinful nature then you have to live righteously perfect and so if a christian sins or does something wrong.

Verses that prove we have a sinful nature


Romans 8:1 KJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 KJV
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5 KJV
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Romans 8:13 KJV
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live .

1 Corinthians 5:5 KJV
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Galatians 3:3 KJV
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 4:29 KJV
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Galatians 5:16 KJV
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:17 KJV
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would .

Galatians 6:8 KJV
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Philippians 3:3 KJV
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Colossians 2:5 KJV
For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

This essay goes into it in a bit more depth
https://www.dbts.edu/journals/1997/nature.pdf

The reason is this doctrine affects all his other teaching as if you believe we have only one righteous nature then you have to live a morally perfect life which ends up in self righteous living. How can the new nature sin? It end up in a theological minefield , Courtship and Dating is scary. Does the new nature sin? You have to ask scary questions like that?

It is are passionate plea to actually analyse sometimes the hermanuetics or how passionate preachers use scripture.

When I was younger people always told me to read the bible even some false teachers and when you do. What ends up happening is alot of rheterotic on verses not actually backing verse by verse of what they believe.

Another doctrine that scares me about Paul Washer is Prepationism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preparationism


Acts 15:11 KJV
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved , even as they.

Acts 16:31 KJV
And they said , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved , and thy house.

Romans 10:9 KJV
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved .



DEEPER
Conference 2008 Breakout Session
(Living Waters & Way of the Master)
Living Waters
By Paul Washer

After I finished I went down. I said, “Sir, what is wrong with you? What is wrong?”
He pulled out a
manila
envelope and he j
ust showed it to me and he said, “I just came
from the doctor. I am going to die in three weeks.” He said, “I have lived out in the bush
working on a working cattle ranch all my life. You can only get there by riding over the
mountains or taking a float pl
ane or something like that.” He said, “I have never been to
a church in my life. I have never read a Bible. One time I heard someone talking about a
guy named Jesus and I do believe there is a God. I have never been afraid of anything in
my life and I am
afraid because I am going to die and I don’t know what to do.”
Now I said, “Sir,
for the last 45 minutes I have preached the gospel to you, the good news
of what God has done for sinners in Jesus Christ. Did you understand it?”
He said, “Yes.”
Now what
would have most evangelists done at that moment?
Would you like to pray and ask Jesus to come into your heart?
But this is what he said.
“Brother Paul, I understood it. I mean, anybody could have
understood it. But is that it? I
understand it now and I
pray a prayer and that is it?”
And I went and started explaining repentance and faith. And after several minutes he
looked at me and he says, “I just don’t get it.”
I said, “Look, you have three weeks to live. I have to leave tomorrow morning. I will
c
ancel my plane ticket and I will stay with you for three weeks until you die, either you
are saved or you die and go to hell. So let’s begin.”
Listen to me. If you are thinking about being an evangelist, don’t think you are going to
preach to a whole bunc
h of people when they come forward you pawn them off on
everyone else to do the counseling
and you go to Denny’s to eat and glory in all the
decisions most of which were just decisions and no one got converted because most of
those people won’t come back t
o church next Sunday

But I looked at that man and I said, “Sir, faith cometh by hearing. Let’s go through
Scripture.”
We went through
Scripture for over an hour, every promise, Old Testament, New
Testament on and on, just laboring until Christ be formed.
We prayed some more. We read some more, another hour goes on. It is getting late. I
said, “We are staying here. This man is dying.”
A
nd then after I don’t know how long we got back to one of my favorite verses in the
Bible, John 3:16. And I said, “Sir...”’
I will never forget because he had that Bible on his legs, my Bible and those big old
hands of his. And I said, “Sir, let’s just r
ead through this again.”
He said, “We have read through it so much.”
I said, “Sir, your life depends on it.”
And so he looked down, that
big old man and he goes, “Ok.”

For God so loved the world, that He gave
...”
10
Oh, oh. I am saved. I am saved. Al
l my sins are gone. I have... my hands are clean. I
have eternal life. Oh, my. I am going to heaven.
I said, “Sir, how do you know?”
He said, “Haven’t you ever read this verse before?”
[applause]
Do you see the difference?
People say, “Are you aga
inst evangelism?”
I say, “Yes and no. I am against your kind of evangelism. I hate it.”
That run men through, grab a little ticket just like you were waiting at some government
office for them to renew your license, grab a ticket and go to heaven.
We wi
ll be responsible. We are called upon. When I preach in meetings and people ...
this is what I do. I don’t give big altar calls and stuff. I say, “Look, it is over. If God is
dealing with your heart, you come to me. We will sit here all night

My problem is what if someone has got one minute to live would they have to go through a long process to be saved


Acts 16
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open , he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled . 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying , Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in , and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said , Sirs, what must I do to be saved ? 31 And they said , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved , and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes ; and was baptized , he and all his, straightway. 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them , and rejoiced , believing in God with all his house

Is the philliphian jailer not saved because according to paul washer he would not be ?

Acts 8
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near , and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said , Understandest thou what thou readest ? 31 And he said , How can I , except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer , so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away : and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said , I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said , See , here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized ? 37 And Philip said , If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest . And he answered and said , I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still : and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip , that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing .

Is the eunuch not saved?

1 John 3:14 KJV
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Compare what the scriptures say

Luke 23:38-48
38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying , If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying , Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds : but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 And the sun was darkened , and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said , Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost . 47 Now when the centurion saw what was done , he glorified God, saying , Certainly this was a righteous man. 48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done , smote their breasts, and returned .

Is the thief saved?

My problem is that his doctrines lead to a narcistic way of life as if you are constantly analysing whether you are saved because there is no fight against the old nature versus the new. There is no grace

1 John 1:7 KJV
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another , and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

He tends to quote verse 7 but not verse 8

1 John 1:8 KJV
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2:1 KJV
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin , we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 2:16 KJV
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Nor our battles against the world, the flesh and the devil

It just breaks my heart as people hear passionate preaching without actually thinking. I love passionate preaching.
What do they believe on the different doctrines such as man, escatology, sin and other things

As they have views but would it worthwhile to know what bias they are coming from and can they back it up with sciptural evidence

The reason this scares me and hurts me is some of his teaching on relationships as I find it mostly americanism such as with courtship, it does not best answer those from broken homes and loads them with laws and not the love of Christ. I have had to deal with some of the concequences of his teaching. As some teaching becomes practically not livable and I find that the bible is a practical book.

What we need to learn is that noone is beyond scruitiny or being tested against the scriptures, even me. I can be wrong. I am a mess and I need Jesus. I love Paul washer analysis but what is he giving as as cure. I find this so common. People love the analysis but what are they giving as a cure.

John 15:5 KJV
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing .

His view on scripture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqwb78d2Yr0


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Dominic Shiells

 2014/7/29 11:58Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re: Paul Washer: Doctrine of Man, Does man have 2 natures or just 1

Deltadom,

I think you misunderstand Paul Washers ' s teaching. He does not believe that if you are regenerate that you are sinless and perfect. He does believe we still hsve the flesh, but the flesh is not the old man or sinful nature. Sinful nature is not a term used in the bible. It is wrongly inserted by the NIV and others in the place of flesh. The bible on talks about the flesh, the old man and the new man. The old man is our old nature and this has been crucified. The new man is our new nature.

I don't agree with all Paul Washer's theology, but I agree with him that we only have one nature. We have a new heart that wants to please and obey God if we ars born again. We do have the flesh in which sin dwells and it is this that we have to put to death. We can only do that if we have a new nature, not two natures.


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Dave

 2014/7/29 17:30Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1676
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

In Paul washer theology there is no old man or new man, there is just the new man in his book the doctrine of man he espouses that view it is the same view held by john macarthur and bb warfield.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Truth-About-Man-Biblical-Doctrine-ebook/dp/B009NWWJFA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1406670889&sr=8-6&keywords=paul+washer

The problem is that if you believe in the fact that you have one nature that one nature cannot sin as it is from God. If there are two natures you can say that you are wrestling against your sin nature. My problem with this view as it almost leads to a works righteous view.

Romans 7:24 KJV
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

You yourself say that we have flesh in which we have to put to death which is the old nature.

I have not misunderstood his theology. I wish you can see the ramifications of his theology.

Did you read this
https://www.dbts.edu/journals/1997/nature.pdf

Galations 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth , crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

My problem is that this battle is the whole way through scripture. Even say after the verse I am crucified with christ.

If you think I have misunderstood Paul Washer give me a reference to one of his books or sermons where he states other wise rather than just saying so.


Through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, the believer’s heart of stone, which was spiritually dead and unresponsive to God, has been replaced with a heart of living flesh that is both willing and able to hear His voice and follow Him (Ezekiel 36:25-27). Though he was once a bad tree bearing bad fruit, he is now a good tree planted by streams of water, yielding fruit in its season, and with leaves that do not wither (Matthew 7:17-18; Psalm 1:3). Thus the believer is not only justified, but is also the very workmanship of God created in Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10). In fact, this ongoing moral transformation in the believer’s life is the basis of his assurance and the evidence of true conversion.

The Truth About Man - Biblical study of the Doctrine of Man- Paul Washer


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Dominic Shiells

 2014/7/29 18:19Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

dont take this thew wrong way ,,but brother you obviously have not listened to much of paul washer ,,iv herd at least a hundred sermons from paul and he believes a christian can still sin ,,,he is far from a holyness preacher ,,the bible literlys states we have a new nature , in does not literly state we have two nature any where in the new testatment ,,our old nature and man was crusafied with christ ,perioud ,, but paul washer teaches the flesh still effects our new nature in so many ways ,,it is a part of our new nature that we put to death daily ,,,,

yea bro if any thing paul washer is nearly to honest about sin in the believer ,,and the wresling and the failings of the christian

what you need to rember about conversions ,is that in scripture those examples may or may not be true conversions ,,then only way to tell was by there fruit as john said in his letter ,if they contine to sin then they are of the devil ,,we dont have that vital imformation about the unic or the jail warden ,,,, but we must rember there was a major revivle going in acts is i like to think that there would have been more solid conversions in that atmosphear ,,our christian heratige would suggest that



before you all sour on some one listen to at least 20 or 30 sermons ,,other wise you will more then likly take there words out of context


you have well and truly misunderstood his theoligy ,,paul is verbly againsts perfectionism and the idea you put forth goes beoned any form of pefection theoligy ,and to my knowlage does not even exist in christianity

 2014/7/30 4:44Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1930
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Paul Washer: Doctrine of Man, Does man have 2 natures or just 1

deltadom:

I know this topic has been discussed at some point in the past. I would actually agree with Washer that there is not a duality of natures within a man. I think that we have to be careful about this particular topic that we don't talk past one another by applying different meanings to the terms we use. You used the term "nature" but then gave many scriptures that deal with the "flesh". It seems that you are saying that what you call the old nature and the flesh are the same thing. I would say that the two are not equivalent.

Actually, the term "nature" is not found in scripture. The only verse I know of that comes close is Eph. 2:3 which tells us about those that "are by nature the children of wrath". But this only says that wrath was our portion by nature of the fact that we were unregenerate. This does not speak to an old or new nature within a man.

What I think we often miss is the nature of salvation. My salvation is not complete. Scripture says that my spirit has been born again, John 3, Heb. 12:23. But my flesh (comprised of my soul which would include the mind, the will, and the emotions, and the physical flesh of the body) has not been born again. We see in several places that though we are born again, we still await salvation. In fact, you quoted one of these verses...Acts 15:11. Remember that we find we await the redemption of the body.

I hesitate to use the word "nature" as it is really so fluid a term and so variously defined. I think I will simply refer to the spirit of man as it is the body inhabited by the spirit that gives rise to the soulish realm of man. Before I was born again, my spirit was unregenerate. I was dead to God in the spirit. But when I was born again my spirit was regenerated. If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things have become new. We find in Romans 6 that when we are baptized it is into his death and that we now are alive through Christ. The spirit of God now gives me life. We are born again in that we are born the second time, not in the flesh or the physical body but in the spirit. Reference again John 3.

My body and my mind, will, and emotions were not born again or regenerated. As such, I am still susceptible to temptation in those realms. If you take Romans 6-8 and read them continuously and in context, paying very close attention to the words Paul uses, you will find that what Paul is describing is not at all a dichotomy of nature but rather the battle to live righteously through the flesh rather than through the spirit. When he speaks of the battle you find that he is referring to his attempts to be righteous by keeping the law (the carnal commandments) and the utter frustration that he felt in doing this.

Paul's solution was the work of Jesus Christ. Because he was born again he now had the ability to walk in the spirit, guided and directed by the Holy Spirit. The rebirth meant that his spirit was now in fellowship, communion if you will with the Spirit of God and his power or ability to live righteously was now from a source other than his own flesh. This is not a duality of nature as we cannot have a duality of spirit. When we sin as a believer we do so by choosing to walk by the dictates of the unregenerate flesh rather then subjugating the flesh to the spirit and allowing God to live through us unto victory over that sin.

I cannot find this duality of nature, the white dog / black dog paradigm of Romans 7 when I put chapter 7 in context with 6 and 8 and read very carefully what Paul is saying. We are either made perfect in our spirit or we are not. The rest of the Christian life is learning to sanctify our flesh (mind, will, emotions, and body) unto the Lord through obedience to the spirit.


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Travis

 2014/7/30 13:25Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1676
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

dont take this thew wrong way ,,but brother you obviously have not listened to much of paul washer ,,iv herd at least a hundred sermons from paul and he believes a christian can still sin ,,,he is far from a holyness preacher ,,the bible literlys states we have a new nature , in does not literly state we have two nature any where in the new testatment ,,our old nature and man was crusafied with christ ,perioud ,, but paul washer teaches the flesh still effects our new nature in so many ways ,,it is a part of our new nature that we put to death daily ,,,

Believe me I have ! I have listened to alot of Paul Washers sermons. I have been on Sermonindex along time. What is our flesh? Can you define it? I was quoting from his references to his book the doctrine of Man. In that reference he states we have only one new nature. Can our new nature sin?

what you need to rember about conversions ,is that in scripture those examples may or may not be true conversions ,,then only way to tell was by there fruit as john said in his letter ,if they contine to sin then they are of the devil ,,we dont have that vital imformation about the unic or the jail warden ,,,, but we must rember there was a major revivle going in acts is i like to think that there would have been more solid conversions in that atmosphear ,,our christian heratige would suggest that

The reason I have a real problem is that some christians spend time judging whether people are truly saved rather than actually living there christian life.

There is a rule in Hermanuetnics in which you do not take a diadactic passage such a letter which is clear in its teaching and then take less clear passage and use it or base a doctrine of that passage.
I find Paul Washers hermanietics terrible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_hermeneutics

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged . 2 For with what judgment ye judge , ye shall be judged : and with what measure ye mete , it shall be measured to you again . 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold , a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask , and it shall be given you; seek , and ye shall find ; knock , and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth ; and he that seeketh findeth ; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened . 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat : 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended , and the floods came , and the winds blew , and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended , and the floods came , and the winds blew , and beat upon that house; and it fell : and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass , when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

I have known this passage being used by Jehovahs witnesses to state that you shall know them by there fruits or Mormans. This passage is so dangerous if used in the wrong way as just because christians sin. I belive in this passage 100% I just believe

Galatians 3:5 KJV
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

2 Ephesians
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ;) 6 And hath raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast .

It is by grace we are saved lest any man should boast

I have heard this passage used of christian I have known for a long time and condemned because they have done maybe one thing wrong and saying that they are not a christian. To me the reason I do not like Paul Washers teaching as people tend to argue on true and false conversions or other menial issues and do not tend to grew up or it stunts peoples growth in christ.
I do tend to think that Paul Washers teaching does tend lead to a perfection theology. What you have got to understand is that if Paul Washer believes in one nature then this theology has to follow, how can that one perfect nature sin?

I do believe as a christian that good deeds should come out our faith in christ but I do not believe that good works should come out of our faith in christ.

1 John 1
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full . 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie , and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another , and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned , we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 JOhn 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin , we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith , I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected : hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk , even as he walked . 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past , and the true light now shineth . 9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth , because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. 13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. 15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away , and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear , we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

I want to take the verse that you have quoted in 1 John because it is only partially what 1 John says 1 John 1 :10
says that if we say that we have not sinned then

1 John 1 :10
10 If we say that we have not sinned , we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

What I am questioning his doctrine of man and his prepationist theology as it has an affect on his whole teaching. Is Paul Washer above a critic i would expect myself to be examined by scripture I could be wrong, If you can state from scipture or even from paul washers sermons that prove otherwise it will be appreaciated. State what verse or what sermon!

This could get into a more complex theological discussion.
The reason I am. There is nowhere in scripture where you have people getting a prepationist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preparationism





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Dominic Shiells

 2014/7/30 13:41Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1992
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thought I'd share the link to a thread from 2011 dealing with this topic. I believe the article in the OP on that 2011 thread gives some thought provoking answers:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38801&forum=36


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Oracio

 2014/7/30 14:04Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

im off to work heres a quote from paul that says Christians are sinless because they only have one nature

"A true Christian will be sensitive to the sin in their life and it will lead them to brokenness and genuine confession, but the person who says they are a Christian and are not sensitive to sin, it does not lead them to confession, a person who is that way is not a Christian." ~ Paul Washer

 2014/7/30 15:54Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1676
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:


twayneb I am thankful for an intellectually satisfying answer


I know this topic has been discussed at some point in the past. I would actually agree with Washer that there is not a duality of natures within a man. I think that we have to be careful about this particular topic that we don't talk past one another by applying different meanings to the terms we use. You used the term "nature" but then gave many scriptures that deal with the "flesh". It seems that you are saying that what you call the old nature and the flesh are the same thing. I would say that the two are not equivalent.

Actually, the term "nature" is not found in scripture. The only verse I know of that comes close is Eph. 2:3 which tells us about those that "are by nature the children of wrath". But this only says that wrath was our portion by nature of the fact that we were unregenerate. This does not speak to an old or new nature within a man.

What I think we often miss is the nature of salvation. My salvation is not complete. Scripture says that my spirit has been born again, John 3, Heb. 12:23. But my flesh (comprised of my soul which would include the mind, the will, and the emotions, and the physical flesh of the body) has not been born again. We see in several places that though we are born again, we still await salvation. In fact, you quoted one of these verses...Acts 15:11. Remember that we find we await the redemption of the body.

/// I have used theses things for my comments of what you have said ///
/// Do you think we are dichotomous or tricotomous as there are big debates among scholarly circles? Even if this question does not matter.

I would agree with you that the word nature is bad terminology but my problem is it if you simply state that are physical body is evil, this could breach on error of gnotism. The body or physical is bad but the spirit is good you state that our body includes say are mind and soul, I would state that these are immatarial or incomporial.

I would agree with you that our body and soul waits glorification, I am tricotomous, I believe that we have a physical body and two incoperal or immatarial parts of out being, I would argue this from scipture but it would take a whole thread///






I hesitate to use the word "nature" as it is really so fluid a term and so variously defined. I think I will simply refer to the spirit of man as it is the body inhabited by the spirit that gives rise to the soulish realm of man. Before I was born again, my spirit was unregenerate. I was dead to God in the spirit. But when I was born again my spirit was regenerated. If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things have become new. We find in Romans 6 that when we are baptized it is into his death and that we now are alive through Christ. The spirit of God now gives me life. We are born again in that we are born the second time, not in the flesh or the physical body but in the spirit. Reference again John 3.

My body and my mind, will, and emotions were not born again or regenerated. As such, I am still susceptible to temptation in those realms. If you take Romans 6-8 and read them continuously and in context, paying very close attention to the words Paul uses, you will find that what Paul is describing is not at all a dichotomy of nature but rather the battle to live righteously through the flesh rather than through the spirit. When he speaks of the battle you find that he is referring to his attempts to be righteous by keeping the law (the carnal commandments) and the utter frustration that he felt in doing this.

// Are you calvinistic ? Do you believe we have a free will? If our will is not regenerated then how can we choose?//

Paul's solution was the work of Jesus Christ. Because he was born again he now had the ability to walk in the spirit, guided and directed by the Holy Spirit. The rebirth meant that his spirit was now in fellowship, communion if you will with the Spirit of God and his power or ability to live righteously was now from a source other than his own flesh. This is not a duality of nature as we cannot have a duality of spirit. When we sin as a believer we do so by choosing to walk by the dictates of the unregenerate flesh rather then subjugating the flesh to the spirit and allowing God to live through us unto victory over that sin.

I cannot find this duality of nature, the white dog / black dog paradigm of Romans 7 when I put chapter 7 in context with 6 and 8 and read very carefully what Paul is saying. We are either made perfect in our spirit or we are not. The rest of the Christian life is learning to sanctify our flesh (mind, will, emotions, and body) unto the Lord through obedience to the spirit.

// I find that the use of the word nature is bad but when Paul Washer speaks it is as if that are entire being is regenerated as he tries to refer heart to everything incoperal if you read his book on doctrine of man. I do not like to use that term as it is not biblical. I believe we are born again. //



John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 8:6 KJV
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

what do you do with this verse

I do not think I have done your post justice!!


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Dominic Shiells

 2014/7/30 16:55Profile





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