| 2005/4/21 8:51|
Just in case someone thinks I am too harsh on the Catholic Church... this is a small portion of what Charles Spurgeon wrote about her.
[i]The following is from Spurgeon's sermon,
"Hope, Yet No Hope. No Hope, Yet Hope"
No. 684. Isaiah 57:10.
"I turn with loathing from gaudily decorated churches, dedicated to salvation by ceremonies, daubed with paint, smothered with glitter, and bedizened with pictures, dolls, and all sorts of baby prettinesses.
I turned aside from them uttering, "If your god accepts such rubbish as this, he is no God to me- my God is too sublime, too noble, too great minded to take delight in your genuflections, and stage play devotions."
When I behold processions with banners, and crosses, and smoking censers, and see men who claimed to besent of God, and yet dress themselves like [b]Tom-fools[/b], I do not care for their god, but reckon that it was some heathenish idol whom I [b]scoff at and despise[/b].
Has it never struck you that ceremonial salvation would be a very wicked way of salvation? What is there, for instance, about drops of baptismal water which could make men better? What is there about confirmation that should assure you of the forgiveness of your sins? What is there about receiving a piece of bread and drinking a drop of wine that should confer grace? Might you not remain as bad at heart and as wicked after all these ceremonies as you were before?
And is it not a violation of the eternal principles of morality that a man should be endowed with grace while still his soul clings to sin?
Now, if there be no effect in water to make you hate sin, and no result from the priest's hands to make you love God, and no result from sacraments to make you holy and heavenly-minded, why do you trust in them?
Surely it is immoral in the highest degree to tell a man that by outward ceremonies, which cannot change the life, he shall have his sin forgiven!
The gospel gives not a vestige of confidence to anybody who hopes to be saved by the performances of ritualism.
The gospel is so simple, so divine; how is it that so many cast it aside, and take up with these sillinesses which are the inventions of man?
Only divine grace can turn you from the delusive path of trusting in vain religious ceremonies for salvation!"[/i]
| 2005/4/21 10:14|
I'm not sure if you are a brother or a sister so I will just call you friend. I certainly appreciate you fervor and zeal for the truth. That is certanily a passion which is sorely lacking from the modern truth.(the love the truth and hatred for the false) Certainly your comments pertaining to the "miracle of the salt stain" are correct and I believe done in a right spirit. (My personal favorite is the cinnamon bun with Mother Teresa's face on it.) Certainly these errors must be exposed and sincere hungry people must be warned. I must admit though I am sorely grieved (not angered) that you would lump the Brownsville Revival together with a salt stain. I understand that you probably only know of it froma second hand perspective (although that may not be true), yet as one having lived in the midst of it for two years I encourage you to be cautious with your statements. I know saying things like this cause many to say thing like, "No, I will not be cautious with exposing heresy and apostasy!" But I sincerely and in a loving spirit ask you to research a little more on it. Trust me, I've both read and heard all of the negatives, and then some! I struggled for a long time with this. Having lived there and sat under the ministry of some of the most sincere, broken, humble men and women of God I have ever met my thinking is different. I have never, and I honestly mean NEVER, been to a church, Pentecostal or Non, where the cross has been more powerfully, and regularly preached on. (Something Brownsville has been wrongly criticized for NOT doing) Many of my classes it was almost a given the entire semester would be spent studying the cross, even though the class was on Acts, or Cults and Comparitive Religions. The cross and the blood of Jesus was the focal point. Brownsville was/is not the Charismatic circus the "discernment ministries" made it out to be. Of course there were excesses many of which my own eyes saw. Never did I see it from the platform (though I'm not saying it hasn't happened - Leaders=humans=able to make mistakes=me) Although I saw many visitors acting out and being distracting, they were always dealt with lovingly yet firmly. Yet the focus was always on the cross, prayer, humility, holiness, evangelism and the like. I personally was saved at the Brownsville Revival in '98. I am a pastors son and have lived all of my life in church and going to church activities. Personally I'd had about all I could take and was completely living in a life of sin and darkness. Yet I went with my youth group because although I was sick of church and religion I was hungry for God. He met me and He met me in power, my life has never been the same and I am now in the full-time ministry. Not that I am an example of great fruit for I am still very flawed. All I can say is that above all of the excesses and all of the flesh the Spirit of God truly moved there in undeniable power, of that I am sure. I do not speak from the perspective of study but I personally know many of the key leaders and know them to be incredible men and women of God whos lives are above reproach. I believe many times we have a tendency to focus on the excesses of a revival and miss the whole point. Many past revival critics have done this same thing. I do indeed believe that we do not need to let just everything go and throw caution to the wind. No fleshly activities must be lovingly dealt with so that the Holy Spirit is not grieved. Yet I personally fear lack more than excess. Yes there are excesses in present movements and have been in every revival that has ever occured, including ones that are hailed and praised as the model on this site and others. Had Evan Roberts been alive today there would be post after post on this site against him. He was a very mystical and strange young man. He regularly had trances and visions many of which we today, and even his biographers dismiss as being the fruits of an overactive imagination. Yet we hail him as a great man of God, even though the end of his life was not so glamorous. I could list to you hundreds of moves of God, and Men of God whos ministries were accompanied by many if not all of the "manifestations" we have seen and criticized, (I say we, because I have done it myself) in present day movements. And No they were not all signs of repentance in past movements. That is all side frills in my opinion compared to the lasting fruit and impact that these movements made.
Krispy I don't want you to get the wrong feeing from me, I am not at all trying to argue with you or criticize you. I am lovingly asking that you be careful, not when it comes to false doctrine and teaching, not at all! I love and bless you and appreciate your boldness and love for the truth!
| 2005/4/21 12:20||Profile|
Hey for images of the miraculous Mother Teresa Cinnamon bun, or the "Nun bun" as this site affectionately refers to it as go to this site - http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/P335/nunbun.html
Not being rude or disrespectful just out of fun.
| 2005/4/21 12:56||Profile|
I'm not sure if you are a brother or a sister so I will just call you friend.
I'm a brother, brother!
Just ask my wife!
| 2005/4/21 13:12|
Jeff... I have limited time right now, but let me thank you for your constructive critizism. I can tell your heart and motivation is good and honest and godly. (I don't always get that from some)
My testimony is a rather long one, so I'll give you the Reader's Digest version. When I was saved a decade or so ago the Brownsville Revival was just hitting it's stride. I've actually been there, and was prayed over by none other than Kilpatrick, and laid out on the floor. We had their music CD's and taped sermons. So I am quite familiar with Brownsville.
Over the last decade the Lord has brought me thru much. In that time I've abandoned the modern versions and I know use exclusively the KJV, and we have left the institutional church system for house churches... and I've talked about that on other threads.
My personal theology has evolved into what most would label "fundamentalist". I prefer to call it "Bible believer", but that's not to say everyone who disagrees with me isnt a Bible believer... I don't believe that at all.
I have sharp disagreements with a lot of the doctrine of those revivals now. HOWEVER... I do believe sincerely that many are saved there, and they do preach salvation and holiness. I've seen and heard it first hand.
I know the leadership is very sincere, and so far as I know they live godly lives. Praise God!
When I made mention of Brownsville, it wasn't intended to be a blanket condemnation of the thing. I can see how it would be, but that's wasn't what I was trying to convey. The scripture I used had to do with a wicked generation that would not believe without seeing a sign... and I know many who do a sort of pilgrimage to the latest "signs and wonders" revival to see it, and "feel" closer to God. Jesus condemned such motivation.
Thats what I was speaking about.
I'm glad you responded!! I made a new friend today!
PM me if you want to know my real name. :-)
| 2005/4/21 13:26|
| Re: Stain on the wall , a report from Chicago.|
God blessed me to be in my hometown of Chicago at the exact time the sighting of the Virgin Mary was reported on the wall of the viaduct at the Fullerton Avenue bridge at the Kennedy Expressway.
I've been burning to testify to you all regarding this, and also to testify about my struggles being in my home town, among my old crowd, being among them as a follower of Jesus.
Before I testify, I did not mean to seem harsh in my earlier post. That wasn't my intent.
I walked over to the bridge on an unseasonably cold morning, rush hour traffic blaring in the background. During the winter in Chicago, prodigous amounts of road salt are used.
Here's what I saw:, a vertical crack running from the top of the viaduct wall, to the sidewalk. About 7 feet above the sidewalk, a widening brown stain. This stain had not "just" appeared, it had probably been a few seasons in the making.
I could not "see" anything in this stain.
At the foot of the stain, were hundreds upon hundreds, of those tall votive candles, and many many bunches of flowers, this whole mass of candles and flowers was 15 feet long and six feet deep, against the viaduct wall.
Around the display, were blue painted Chicago police barricades, the kind made out of wood, a single beam with four legs. There was a satellite transmission truck, and a about four video cameraman.
People, mostly Latino, kept coming and going. They would go thru the barricades, gaze at the stain, touch it, kiss their hand and make the sign of the Cross.
It was a very sad scene.
I stood at the barricade, opened my Bible to the Magnificant, in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 1, and fed off this Song that Mary sings, meditating on it, and praying for those who hunger.
Then the Holy Ghost laid it on me;
these people are so hungry, so thirsty and so in ecclesiastical bondage, that they will trek to a stain on a wall seeking a manifestation of the Living God.
Pray harder, He said.
I started to ask some of the men around me, what they see. They attempted to explain what I was looking at. I nodded respectfully, they looked down at the open Bible balanced on the beam of a barricade, and would back away.
I grew tired of this.
So I left.
I'm in Chicago now, because I came to attend a symposium on Mayor Richard J, Daley , he's the father of Chicago's current mayor. I'm working on a piece about him.
Within the theater I grew up in, I'm the only one who is walking with God, fears God, and follows Jesus.
I am not sanctimonous, not self righteous.
I used to be one of the party boys here, grass, dope booze, lots of girl friends, a totally godless existence. Everyone else here still leads life as before. However I do NOT admonish them, I stay cheerful, I stay prayerful, I choose my words carefully.
But watch out, once you lead a Godly life, those who knew you 'before' get STIRRED up, something intense.
You dont have to do a thing, say a thing, you become an offense.
I wish I could write more. I ask you this, if you read this, keep me, your brother in prayer these next 4 days.
God bless you is my fervent prayer.
| 2005/4/22 13:53|
| Re: Stain on the wall , a report from Chicago.|
You are definately in my prayers, brother Neil! I pray God opens doors for you to witness and lead you old friends to Christ!
Thanx for being a warrior for Christ.
| 2005/4/22 14:15|