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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Judges 2:1-7 NASB

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ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7421
Mississippi

 Judges 2:1-7 NASB

I read the following the other day and noticed something I never comprehended before. I was so amazed that I got stuck! Here is the scripture:

Judges 2:1-7 NASB

1 Now the angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you,

2 and as for you, you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed Me; what is this you have done?

3 “Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they will become as thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.’”

4 When the angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the sons of Israel, the people lifted up their voices and wept.

5 So they named that place Bochim; and there they sacrificed to the LORD.

6 When Joshua had dismissed the people, the sons of Israel went each to his inheritance to possess the land.

7 The people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, who had seen all the great work of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

What amazed me to no end are the phrases in verse 1: "angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim". And in verse 4: "When the angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the sons of Israel".

So, it appeared the angel was on a journey, going from Gilgal to Bochim. When he got to Bochim he spoke to the sons of Israel - a multitude of men! A Multitude! Get that? Until the angels appeared to the shepherds one does not read where an angel appeared to more then one person at a time, do we? Wonder what he looked like? Must have looked like a man, but how did the people recognize him as an angel? But they seemed to have known who he was...An angel spoke to a multitude of people!

I am still trying to wrap my mind around this incident...


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Sandra Miller

 2014/7/16 9:43Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 768


 Re: Judges 2:1-7 NASB

ginny,

This wasn't just an angel, this was the Lord who appeared. If you read throughout the old testament there is a being that is consistently referred to as "THE Angel of the Lord" and whenever men see Him, they usually fall down in fear and declare that they should/are surprised that they didn't die because they had seen the Lord.

I always thought that it was very interesting.

 2014/7/16 11:57Profile
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 Re:


It is arguable if it was the Lord Himself. Either way what a frightful thing for an Angel of the Lord Himself to preach. I believe the only other place where angels will be preaching is in the book of revelation when they at one point are proclaiming the Eternal Gospel.

God was very long-suffering with His people and their failings. Trying at all points to bring them back to obedience.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/7/16 12:11Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7421
Mississippi

 Re:

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

This wasn't just an angel, this was the Lord who appeared. If you read throughout the old testament there is a being that is consistently referred to as "THE Angel of the Lord"
______________________________________________________________

havok, reckon I will have to a specific study on this question. I always thought that when the OT used the term 'the LORD appeared" it meant the pre-incarnate Jesus. But when it used the term 'angel' it would mean just that, angel. Think I will check this out closer - looks like a fascinating subject. Maybe you got it all down pat?

Whether it was an angel or the LORD Jesus it says he 'came up' and then spoke to the men of Israel. What a meeting that would have been! It is no wonder the people were faithful to the LORD as long as these guys lived. They knew the LORD, had first hand experience with Him and it was out of this knowledge/experience they were able to lead the people.

Imagine it, if you can! This 'angel' preaching to a mass of people! Amazing...

Anyhow, am going to a thorough study on this reality.


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Sandra Miller

 2014/7/16 12:34Profile
dolfan
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Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

And, Ginnyrose, don't you know too how fickle it seems we are after reading that passage. One generation sees this messenger and follows the Lord. Another likewise. But by the third generation, we are well into the cycle of every man doing what was right in his own eyes and the word of the Lord being rare.

No wonder revival can come yet be all but forgotten within years or sooner. I think of the Hebrides revival. Some from that generation still live, and no doubt they travailed in prayer for their children and grandchildren. But where is Scotland today? In the Hebrides, some at least, the people take Sunday seriously enough to attend church and not to work. Yet, on the isle of Lewis where Duncan Campbell witnessed God move, one current resident notes how much of a problem drunkenness and alcoholism is there.

Lord, keep us in prevailing, availing intercession and repentance. We need you, as do our children and grandchildren.


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Tim

 2014/7/16 13:00Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 768


 Re:

It is more proof, for sure, that it takes the power of Gospel to transform the lives of men. No amount of past glory can do what only the Lord does within the hearts of men. If you read judges 17-21, they actually take place right after Joshua died, and it says, "In those days, there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in their own eyes."

When men and women actually encounter the Living God, then they are transformed. But without that, it's all whispers and mutters.

 2014/7/16 13:27Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7421
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 Re:

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

don't you know too how fickle it seems we are after reading that passage. One generation sees this messenger and follows the Lord. Another likewise. But by the third generation, we are well into the cycle of every man doing what was right in his own eyes and the word of the Lord being rare.
______________________________________________________________

Don't I ever know! My parents generation - in our community - experienced a real revival when I was a child. I remember those evangelists who preached with power and passion. The response was great. By the time the 1960s rolled around it began to wane. Today - apostasy of the worse sort has set in. People my age and older lament the loss of passionate preaching - "preachers just don't preach like they used to". (Except for Paul Washer and he is a Baptist!) The passion, the urgency is gone. Fellows used to preach on hell because they were scared not to; today they don't preach on it because they are scare to. The hunger is not there. Too many church leaders are into a report giving mode like we used to in grade school. They have about as much enthusiasm as an entomologist talking about thrips and white flies - boring to most folks.

As I look at my own brotherhood, I get discouraged...The hunger is waning. I can easily see why: they have not gotten rid of the resident pagans in their entertainments and it is dulling their conscience - just like the Israelites in Judges 1 and 2.

Yes, revival and apostasy goes in cycles. It seems as though a brotherhood cannot maintain it for long. We can see it the messages to the seven churches in Revelation.

I see in our brotherhood a confusion of forgiveness and repentance. It is like Vance Havner has said, "People are getting used to the dark."


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Sandra Miller

 2014/7/16 21:27Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7421
Mississippi

 Re:

A few minutes ago I was reminded of another historical fact that proves this principle: the third generation after a revival will have reverted back to ungodliness.

The Anabaptists were sorely persecuted in Europe and in time Catherine, the Great (from Russia) needed people to populate an area of her domain so she invited some of these people in to settle this land. They did - agreeing to her stipulation they not evangelize the native peoples.

In time, these Russian Mennonites, now so called because they lived under the rule of Russia, saw the writing on the wall that the freedoms they enjoyed are going to be taken away. In the late 1800s many moved to the USA or Canada, others decided to stay.

Their worse fears were realized when the bandits plundered, destroyed their communities in the 1920s. Then many worked escape this severe persecution, suffering intense hardship. Some ended up in Paraguay, South America. They settled in colonies and got productive in tilling the land.

But.

In time, these people came to be known as being very carnal, lawless, spiritually dead - even after experiencing all this hardship. Mennonites from the USA did go down there to provide them with some leadership in spiritual matters but am not sure of their success - don't think it had a big impact on them.

Quite a few years ago I met a family that immigrated from there to the states. I was utterly fascinated because I was familiar with their history and I had wondered, "Why after suffering so terribly at the hands of the communists did they apostatize so badly?" I asked the dad this question. He said, "it was because the colonies were settled by young people. They had no older ones to advise and guide them."

I see! So that is what happens when the older ones abdicate their position of authority and defer to the younger generation OR when the younger refuse the insights, advice given by the older brothers and sisters in their midst. More often it happens when the younger are preferred over the older ones.

Just thought I would share this.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2014/7/17 11:13Profile
havok20x
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 Re:

Quote:
I see! So that is what happens when the older ones abdicate their position of authority and defer to the younger generation OR when the younger refuse the insights, advice given by the older brothers and sisters in their midst. More often it happens when the younger are preferred over the older ones.



This is something that is very near and dear to my heart. As a young man (I am 27) and as one who participated in a youth group, went to conferences, etc and who still works with the youth at my church, I have noticed a dark and subtle tendancy for well-meaning, albeit deceived, preachers to pit the youth against the older men and women in the church. They label them as Pharisees, fundamentalists, not-in-tune with the Spirit, etc, etc, etc. I hate it. That sort of mentality goes against everything that I have read in the Scriptures regarding respecting and listening to my elders.

It isn't an out and out, "You need to hate your elders" but it is done through saying things like "When you go back to your churches, some of the older generation may see the freedom in your worship and not like it. Be an example to them" and other self-esteem generating nonsense. That sounds like good advice on the surface, but automatically the youth will look at the older generation in suspicion.

The sheer fact that we try to separate the youth from the older generation (youth groups, conferences just for youth, schools, etc) immediately causes division within the church. The wisdom of the older generation is cut off from the youth who easily are entrapped by overzealousness, pride, lust, etc.

That's why I dispise colleges and public schools. You have a bunch of unwise, self-seeking, prideful people who don't know almost anything at all in a single place teaching one another and convincing one another that they know everything. THEN you wonder why very, very few youth are men/women of God.

If God ever grants me a wife and children, they are going to stay in sunday school class with me and in big church with me from birth until they are married and move out (assuming they move away).

I kind of ranted a little, and what I said is very opinionated, but it terrifies me to no end to see that I was constantly being taught to stay away from the older, "pharisee" generation than to draw near to them and listen to them. :(

 2014/7/17 13:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:
That's why I dispose colleges and public schools. You have a bunch of unwise, self-seeking, prideful people who don't know almost anything at all in a single place teaching one another and convincing one another that they know everything. THEN you wonder why very, very few youth are men/women of God.

If God ever grants me a wife and children, they are going to stay in sunday school class with me and in big church with me from birth until they are married and move out (assuming they move away).



I find this post of yours brother, very interesting. I recall a specific day in 1986 when as a 27 year old as you are now, I watched the church I attended being handed over to the youth. I mean this literally and spiritually and not in any way figuratively.

From the moment I arrived at this church I was burdened for the youth. I even spoke with the pastor privately and told him straightforwardly that the youth of the church were worldly and slipping into spiritual deception by mingling worldly and spiritual things together. He agreed with me and made no attempt to correct me. Then on this day I am speaking about I watched as he announced that he was giving the youth a ministry in the church because he believed that they would bring the next generation of believers into the church. The implication being that the youth were in touch with "modern" life and the older brethren were not.

That meeting was demonic to its core, and I watched over head images, which were more fit for hell, being presented, in a vain and blasphemous presentation of youthful pride and ignorance. Over the years I have watched every single one of those young people backslide, divorce, die untimely deaths, lose their first born children and a host of other tragedies and the church is now completely apostate.

In that meeting I turned to the elder brother who was sat next to me and said to the effect, "brother you do realise that this day the church has been given over to the youth and the elders will become of no account, have no authority and they will either comply or else withdraw their hand." He looked at me and said, "yes I can see it. But there is nothing I can do about it".

When young people stopped listening to their elder brethren, both male and female because they saw in them a generation of men and women who had made mistakes and had been seen to practise hypocrisy, then you may as well leave. It is simply not enough to be young, you have to be submitted in real and proper meaning to those who are over you otherwise you are just a rebel no matter who says different or who gives you permission to behave the way you do behave.

 2014/7/18 2:11





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