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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

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yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Hi Dolfan,

I don't have a copy of Joseph Prince's "Destined to Reign" with me, so I can only guess the context in which these quotes were taken (based on what I know of his theology).

The first quote: I believe what Joseph Prince is saying here is that trying to live in obedience to the law is to rely on your own strength ("looking at yourself"). In contrast, fixing your mind on Christ - who He is, what He has done, and who you are in Him - is New Covenant living (Romans 8:6, Romans 12:2).

The second quote: By "preaching the law", I believe what he means here is "preaching that Christians should obey the law" (that is not the purpose of the law!! - c.f. Galatians 3:21-25, 1 Timothy 1:8–11). And Joseph Prince is correct - that can never lead to holy living (1 Cor 15:56). Indeed, there were many who attempted to live up to the requirements of the Mosaic Law, but none were counted righteous despite centuries of such efforts.

The Christian life is not about living under a set of rules (i.e. 'law' - no matter how agreeable and good those rules may be); it is about being governed by Christ (Romans 8:1-17). The former is fleshly living, while the other is supernatural living - both are radically different, and lead to extraordinarily different outcomes.

This also corroborates with Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." It is by receiving God's grace that you are empowered to overcome sin. Joseph Prince does not preach grace as a license to sin - to the contrary, he states emphatically that those who adopt such Antinomian views have yet to understand God's grace (from the FAQ on his official website). This is fully biblical.

The purpose of the Old Covenant is to show us that we cannot live up to God's standards as revealed in the law, thus revealing our need for Christ (Galatians 3:21-25). It is true that the New Covenant was foreshadowed in the Old Testament, however the New Covenant is *not* contained in the Old Covenant. Otherwise there would be no need for a New Covenant at all - and indeed, the New Covenant is superior to the old in every way (Hebrews 8:7-13).


I'm not here to endorse or repudiate Joseph Prince's ministry. However, I believe that if his views and theology are to be criticized, they should be given accurate representation.

As for my opinion on Joseph Prince (and I should stress that it is just an opinion - based on some of his stuff I've gleaned, and also having visited his church a few times):

Some of the stuff which Joseph Prince says is problematic (like the page 305 quote on rebukes which you highlighted), but in my opinion it's nowhere as problematic as the very poor grasp of the New Covenant in many churches.

When Joseph Prince is good, he's really good. I reckon it's a dangerous thing to imbibe his every word without checking with God - but that's true of all preachers anyway.

I cannot endorse everything he says wholesale. Having prayed about it, I don't have a habit of listening to Joseph Prince's sermons on a regular basis. Ultimately, I have one teacher and I know He is sufficient (Matt 23:8).

However, I have no doubt there are people who encounter God and are set free through Joseph Prince's ministry. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...

I pray that he will come to know God ever more fully, which is what I pray for myself as well.

 2014/7/15 17:44Profile
amranger
Member



Joined: 2010/4/7
Posts: 71
Montana

 Re: Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

Brother Blaine,

This is an excellent topic, and one that is hugely misunderstood in the church today.

There is all sorts of varieties of belief on this, but it usually comes down to some kind of strange combination of old and new covenants. Hardly anyone agrees with another's idea of what the percentage should be of old/new. A lot of american "christianity" (and probably other places, but I'll speak as an american) is more about morality and living decent than about the righteousness that comes through believing in Jesus Christ. With that view you generally find a weird combination of mixed covenant belief.

We need to rightly divide the Word of God. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15.

Christians today are not under the old covenant, not any part of it, including the 10 commandments. People often freak out when I say that. The entire old covenant has been set aside. We are now in the new covenant, it is an entirely new covenant and is self-contained. Is there some of the same things in both covenants? Absolutely. But where many people run into trouble is when they try to have a little of both covenants. The old covenant prophesies and alludes to the new for sure.

The whole old covenant is set aside, not just the civil and ceremonial laws, but also the 10 commandments. Please understand my point here. My point is not that all of the sudden it's okay to commit murder for example, the new covenant addresses these types of things. My point is that the whole covenant and everything it contains is set aside for a new covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11

"6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.1 7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

The 10 commandments were what was written and engraven in stones. Verse 11 tells us that was done away.

Deuteronomy 4:13

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Hebrews has a lot to say to us about the 2 covenants. It's all throughout the book but especially chapters 6-12.

The old covenant has many uses to the believer today, for example, the shadows and types can help us understand the new covenant better. All the word of God is for the believer today, but it MUST be used for the purpose it is intended! The old covenant is not for believers to live UNDER today.

Paul writes more about this in Galatian 4:19-31.

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.8 9 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.10 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that Paul says he travails in birth again until Christ is formed in them. The word "again" is often overlooked when people read and quote that verse. Remember what he talks about in chapter 3. The Galatians had been born again by the hearing of faith, but then they were trying to be perfected by the law! So Paul said he was in travail until Christ be formed AGAIN in them! They had left Christ! How much of the church today is in the same condition?

Paul says that Abraham's sons are an allegory of two covenants! Hagar corresponds to Mount Sinai. What was given on Mount Sinai? The law! The people still trying to live under the law, including those who mix old and new still persecute the children of the freewoman, those who live by and in the new covenant. He then goes on to say to cast out the bondwoman, the old covenant! One other thing to note from this passage of scripture is that Spirit = New Covenant, Flesh = Old Covenant.

This is by no means a comprehensive look at this subject, but this is probably enough for this post.

-Andrew



_________________
Andrew

 2014/7/15 19:01Profile









 Re:

Andrew you have summarized so nicely what I was trying to convey. Thank you for your excellent post.

I might add that Hebrews 12:18-24 contrasts the covenant at Sinai which is the old covenant and the covenant at Zion which is the new covenant. The writer says we have not cone to Sinai but to Zion. Good verses to reflect on.

Appreciate your post and excellent thoughts.

Blaine

 2014/7/15 20:10









 Re:

Putting this back on the board for ongoing discussion.

Blaine

 2014/8/11 21:08
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
The whole old covenant is set aside, not just the civil and ceremonial laws, but also the 10 commandments. Please understand my point here. My point is not that all of the sudden it's okay to commit murder for example, the new covenant addresses these types of things. My point is that the whole covenant and everything it contains is set aside for a new covenant.



As pointed out in another thread, then why do we still have some of the same Ten Commandments and other OT references to the moral law reinforced in the NT? Again, for example,

""If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."-James 2:8-12

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."-Romans 7:7-25

"8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”“You shall not covet,”and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."-Romans 13:8-10

"Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”-Matthew 22:35-40

In this last passage Jesus quotes directly from the OT(Deut.6:5 and Lev.19:18) and reinforces God's unchanging moral law revealed therein.

Quote:
2 Corinthians 3:6-11

"6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.1 7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

The 10 commandments were what was written and engraven in stones. Verse 11 tells us that was done away.

Deuteronomy 4:13

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.


In that other thread I mentioned I wrote regarding that passage, "In 2Cor. 3 Paul points out the distinction between the ministries of the Old and New Covenants. In the Old Covenant there was a certain fear and a pronouncement of judgment upon all who broke God's law, with not much mention of grace. But in the New Covenant we have the grace of God through Jesus Christ and are not under the curse and power of God's law. In 2Cor. 3:5-6 Paul is saying that the mere "external reading and keeping" of the law (which the Pharisees emphasized) kills. But we are still bound to obey God's moral law through the power of the Spirit, for we see this clearly throughout the NT."

Quote:
Hebrews has a lot to say to us about the 2 covenants. It's all throughout the book but especially chapters 6-12.


In the book of Hebrews the main differences that are made are between the priestly offices and ceremonial laws and sacrifices in the Old Covenant and the High Priesthood and ultimate sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ for our sins. The emphasis is on how the New Covenant excels the Old, without reference to the moral law of God revealed in the OT.

Quote:
Paul writes more about this in Galatian 4:19-31.

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.8 9 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.10 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that Paul says he travails in birth again until Christ is formed in them. The word "again" is often overlooked when people read and quote that verse. Remember what he talks about in chapter 3. The Galatians had been born again by the hearing of faith, but then they were trying to be perfected by the law! So Paul said he was in travail until Christ be formed AGAIN in them! They had left Christ! How much of the church today is in the same condition?

Paul says that Abraham's sons are an allegory of two covenants! Hagar corresponds to Mount Sinai. What was given on Mount Sinai? The law! The people still trying to live under the law, including those who mix old and new still persecute the children of the freewoman, those who live by and in the new covenant. He then goes on to say to cast out the bondwoman, the old covenant! One other thing to note from this passage of scripture is that Spirit = New Covenant, Flesh = Old Covenant.



In the book of Galatians Paul is warning his readers about trying to keep the law, including circumcision, as a means of obtaining righteousness. The NT warns over and over about the curse that comes from trying to do that. We are not saved by keeping the law but by God's grace through faith in Christ alone apart from the works of the law.

In Romans 3:31 Paul says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

What law is established according to Paul there? In considering the whole of the NT, I'd say it's the moral law that continues to be established but now in a new way through the gospel and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is now called the law of Christ which is written on our hearts and revealed in both the OT and NT.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/8/11 22:27Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1638


 OT is external and NT is internal

It is very simple. OT talks about a covenant that is external blessing. There are very few internal laws and blessing here. New Covenant that is established through death and esablishment of Jesus is all internal life and blessings. Jesus said if the inside of cup is cleansed then outside is clean as well. So if we follow New Covenant life by being obedient to Jesus, we automatically keep the Mosaic law. But the reverse is not true, by keeping OT we cannot satisfy NT life. Like Jesus said, he has strengthened the law by his teachings in the Sermon on the mount.

When a believer turns to Jesus, Jesus becomes his only authority on earth, nothing else like OT laws can beind him. It is the Spirit of Jesus, Holy Spirit that guides him. This leads to a life that is of very high standard than any Old Testament guy can attain. Jesus said the greatest man under Old Covenant (John the Baptist) is not greater than the least in under New Covenant.


_________________
Sreeram

 2014/8/12 2:45Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re: OT is external and NT is internal

2HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.

paul quoted strait form the law of moses and comanded the children under the new covernt ,,done,,,,, obviously the comandment are still binding ,else how do ya explain paull literly quoting that

the comment obout the glory of the old couvernt fading away was acutual talking about the glory of moses face ,,


i was going to use that as a proof text one day to suport that we are not under the ten comand but after reading that verse and rembering the above verses i changed my mind and reliesed we are not under the condemnation and chastiment of the law, that was what we were held by not the moral law its self ,,but in all reality gentils like us were with out law and i would have perished with out law

we are under grace ,not under the law and held by it through being guitly law breakers ,,we fulfille the laws perfect requirment through jesus perfect righteousness ,the righteousness of god imputed to us by faith being held by that ,costrained by that law of grace , now we partakes of devine nature which sets us free from the other law of habiual sin ,,now that law neither has doninion over us ,so now it is imposable to cotine in sin becasue god seed is in us so we can no longer continue to love and persue ,and practice sin

 2014/8/12 5:25Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4788


 Re:

Heb 10:5
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

Heb 10:6
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.

Heb 10:7
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”fn

Heb 10:8
Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),

Heb 10:9
then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.”fn He takes away the first that He may establish the second.



In every generation since Adam, God had no pleasure in "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin." He "did not desire" them.


What has God always required of man?


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2014/8/12 6:52Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Moses has absolutely no authourity over a believer in Jesus Christ. To suggest that he does is to tell someone that has emigrated to your country that he is still under the laws of the country he left.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/8/12 7:59Profile









 Re: Contrast between Sinai and Zion

Hebrews 12:18-34
For you have not come come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and worldwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and to the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard bagged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN IT MUST BE STONED". And so terrible was the sight that Moses said "I AM FULL OF FEAR AND TREMBLING".

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Dear saints which mount have you come to? Sinai or Zion? Whom are you governed by, Moses or Christ?

Respectfully,

Blaine

 2014/8/12 8:39





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