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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

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yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re: Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

Christians do not live under the law, but under Christ:

Romans 6:14-15 - "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

1 Corinthians 15:56 - "The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law."

Romans 7:4-6 - "Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another — to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Romans 5-8 speaks of this very clearly - though it took many years before the scales fell off my eyes and I finally grasped its meaning. I believe the key to understanding Romans is to read the text literally, and pay due attention to the grammatical tenses used by Paul.

 2014/7/15 13:26Profile
yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re: Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

This article articulates quite well on Christian living - what it means to be alive to God, and being dead to sin, self, the law, and the world:

The Key To The Victorious Christian Life: An explanation of how to experience the victory, peace, freedom and joy God has provided for us in Christ (by Mike Quarles)

http://brotherheart.wordpress.com/articles-by-mike-quarles/the-key-to-the-victorious-christian-life/

 2014/7/15 13:34Profile









 Re:

Havoc I agree the issue is our view of Scripture. But is the view a flat line view with both covenants binding upon believer. Or is it a view of redemptive history that shifts from the shadow of the law to the reality of Christ. I suggest that it is the latter.

To say that we progress from the shadow to the reality is not pitting Moses against Christ. But rather a moving of redemptive history from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant.

Perhaps this movement can be best understood in the Mount of Transfiguration found in the synoptic gospels. Here Jesus was with Moses the law giver. He was also with Elijah who represented the spirit of the prophets. Yet they faded away when God spoke through the cloud saying this is my beloved Son, Listen to Him. When the cloud left Jesus remained. I think the significance is quite obvious.

I think the above is illustrated in 2 Cor.3 when Paul speaks of the ministry of the Old Covenant fading away in favor of the New Covenant.

My thoughts.

Blaine

 2014/7/15 13:52
yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

[[edit]]

 2014/7/15 14:07Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

This topic always draws out the most interesting responses no matter where you find it.

It can be messy. As a rule, we are not very good students of God's Word. We bring our own ways of reading and processing information to it, for one. We also have so many disparate voices insisting on being authoritative themselves and they are saying all sorts of different and often opposing or inconsistent things.

I like what Havok said about the OT and NT.

We should not view the revelation of God in the Word through two sets of glasses. The Bible is a long revelation of God, who is always the same. It is the revelation of God in His relationship with His creation. Because it is a practical revelation of an actual relationship, we are blessed to have concrete historical accounts of that revelation in real human time as opposed to a compilation of truisms and abstract ideas. One reason we fail to read it as a single, complex, continuing revelation of one God is because the faces, names and places do change as God's relationship outlasts one generation and is accounted for into the next, and so on.

It does little help to say that the OT is fulfilled in the NT. It is true, but it doesn't really mean anything in a practical sense to most readers.

The OT is not out of date. It is not "less authority" than the NT. There is no opposition between them. What the OT is, though, is the revelation of God, given to men by eyewitness accounts, by God's providential supervision of the recording of actual events, places and people, and by the agency of the Holy Spirit. The OT revelation is the history of God's specific revelation of Himself and His intentions for His creation on earth through one relationship with a multi-generational ethne with whom He bound Himself in three particular covenants: Abrahamic (through whose seed all nations will be blessed, the seed being Jesus), Mosaic (the Law of God as a tutor and master of the ways of God and the sin of man, designed to bring the particular line of Abraham through Issac and Jacob through time and by the guiding hand of God until the fulness of time and the person of a Jesus, son of Mary) and Davidic (a royal kingdom comprised of the line of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and ruled by descendants of David, culminating finally and forever in Jesus the Christ in the eschaton of all things.). The NT is the historical account of God's completion of His revelatory work and His redemptive work with His only begotten Son, Jesus, as the fullest and final revelation of God and as the redemption of the physical line of Abraham (Israel) and of the "nations" through faith in Jesus.

Without the OT, there is no NT. Without the NT, the OT is moot. Certainly, there are specific portions of the OT that do not have direct application to the nations, and the whole of the ritual law of the OT is made unnecessary by the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. Yet, these do not pit one of the testaments against the other, nor the covenants.

Finally, Jesus is the fulfillment of all things. It is before Him that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. At the transfiguration, where Moses and Elijah appeared to Peter, James and John and spoke with Jesus, it was Peter's response to build three tabernacles including one for Moses. But, only a week before, Peter had said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the son of the loving God." The Father Himself responded to Peter: "This is my Son. Hear ye Him," and Moses and Elijah were gone. There is no question that Jesus was, is and shall ever remain the One to whom we answer, the One to whom we must give account. He is the ahead of the Body and there is no other. There are no "degrees" of His authority, which is absolute and unique as the blessed and only potentate.


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Tim

 2014/7/15 14:40Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by sermonindex on 2014/7/15 7:44:10


We are governed by Christ Himself the Person and not even the Scriptures though they are a means so therefore Christ supersedes even the Scriptures themselves.
______________________

Great post Greg, simple and to the point. JESUS is a person and we are governed by HIM.

God Bless
maryjane

 2014/7/15 15:34Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

Brother Blaine,

If you have meet anyone who says that you have to keep the law AND the new covenant, they are desperately mistaken--calvinist, arminian, or neither.

I think we agree mostly, but I am discussing it from the perspective that many, many Christians ignore the first 39 books of the Bible because they aren't the New Testament, because some deceived preacher or church member told them that the OT was unimportant.

 2014/7/15 15:35Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

Havok wrote:

"I think we agree mostly, but I am discussing it from the perspective that many, many Christians ignore the first 39 books of the Bible because they aren't the New Testament, because some deceived preacher or church member told them that the OT was unimportant."

And, a lot of them say this. Re: Joseph Prince, much of the Church of Christ denomination, and lots more.


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Tim

 2014/7/15 16:23Profile
yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Dolfan wrote:

"And, a lot of them say this. Re: Joseph Prince, much of the Church of Christ denomination, and lots more."

Where does Joseph Prince say this? He speaks of seeing Christ in the Old Testament, I thus find it hard to believe that he would make such a blanket dismissal.

 2014/7/15 16:28Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

Yuehan,

I respectfully submit the following:

From Destined to Reign,

“The law is about you looking at yourself. The new covenant is all about you seeing Jesus.” (p. 196)

"Have you noticed that the law entered so that sin might abound? It clearly means that the more you preach the law, the more sin will abound. After all, the strength of sin is the law. Therefore, when you see sin and you preach more of the law, you are literally adding wood to fire." (p. 249)

Now, these two rather randomly chosen quotes carry a lot of meaning. The law brings me to Christ, according to Paul. Not so for Prince, who says it helps you look at yourself. Plus, the law isn't "about" that at all. He made it up.

Prince wholly disowns the power of the OT. “My friend, the spirit of Jesus in the new covenant of grace is not the spirit of the old covenant of law during Elijah’s time.” (p. 51-52.). The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, says the Bible. The testimony of Jesus is replete, full of, the OT law and prophets, even as He preached the kingdom of God. Jesus actually rebuked Satan with the OT three times.

There is so much more. Read some of Michael Brown's work on Prince's writing.

Prince says this, too, albeit less about his covenant issues:

"Because of Jesus' finished work at the cross, He will never be angry with you nor rebuke you even when you fail. (p. 305)". He just took out 2 Tim. 3:16 there, which by itself includes "all Scripture" .... primarily the OT at that time ... As being I spired and profitable for, among other things, rebuke.


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Tim

 2014/7/15 17:06Profile





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