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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

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 Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

In my reading of Anabaptist theology on a website I was intrigued by their view of the Bible. For it resonated in my spirit.

The traditional evangelical view is a flat view of the Bible. Both the Old and New Testaments are equally binding on the believer. This view would imply the believer is under the Mosaic law as stipulated in the Moral Law or the Ten Commandments. The believer is exempt from the civil and ceremonial Jewish law.

This view has an appeal to Calvinists who would defend infant baptism. Also such a flat view of the Bible would give rise to a use of force for personal or national defense. Mainly drawn from the Old Testament.

The Anabaptist view is more of a New Covenant emphasis. Whereas the Anabaptist saw both the Old And New Testaments as the word of God. They saw the New Testament as having greater weight then the Old Testament upon the believer. Thus they attached greater significance over the teachings of Christ and the Apostles to rule in the heart of the believer. The Anabaptist stressed great emphasis upon the Sermon on the Mount. To them when Jesus said `You have heard it said` but `I say` Jesus words were more binding then Moses.

I submit the Anabaptist view of the superiority of Christ over Moses is in keeping more with the sweep of redemptive history than the Reformed flat view if scripture which is do prevalent today.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster.

 2014/7/14 19:17
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 Re: Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?


From the beginning of the Church's history, the Old Testament (T'nach), the Bible of Jesus, was the primary sacred Scripture of the Church. It was fundamental to the life of the first congregations of the early Church. It was used to persuade Jews that Jesus was Messiah. It was used as primary authority to be quoted in all considerations. The Jewish Bible was therefore the "unimpeachable sourcebook of saving doctrine" to the Christian Church (Kelly 1968:53).

During the second century some Christians under the influence of gnostic philosophies came to look with suspicion upon the Old Testament and even to reject it completely as alien to the gospel of Christ, but these persons were regarded as heretics and outside the stream of true Christianity (Kelly 1968:52).
from: http://lloydthomas.org/5-SpecialStudies/OT-Use.html



The early Church existing for 300 years before our traditional bible was formed officially. So the New Testament was not in every meeting as we have it. The Old Testament was heavily relied upon because it was accessible and the Bible Jesus used. Therefore I believe the early church was able to read the Old Testament to see Jesus Christ and promises from God instead of looking at it to have to keep its laws and regulations.

As much as I appreciate anabaptist theology it is not early church theology but a reaction to reformed beliefs in the 1600's. What about the church for 1500 years especially the early assemblies?



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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/7/14 20:05Profile
brothagary
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 Re:

but blain is the reformed view more prevelent then the anabatise view that held the new had more weight ,,,,id like to see reference to that please ,,to me it sounds like a reactanary opinion of your brother

 2014/7/14 22:19Profile









 Re: Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer

Some of the comments in this thread take me a bit by surprise. Trying to share a few scriptures without making the issue more complicated.
"Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer"
Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth. Mtth. 28:18
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,…Philippians 2:8,9 Jesus is our Lord and we can only have One Lord (Ephesians 4:5)

"The Anabaptist view is more of a New Covenant emphasis"
Jesus introduced a new covenant (Luke 22:20)
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear (Hebrews 8:13)
So it is not a matter of emphasis.
The Old Testament was heavily relied upon because it was accessible and the Bible Jesus used
As much as I appreciate anabaptist theology it is not early church theology.
The Old Testament has many passages which speak about Jesus. (Luke 24:27) But because "all Scripture is inspired " those OT passages about Jesus can't contradict the NT.

"Revelation 19:16 is the main passage where "King of kings" is mentioned in relation to Jesus Christ. "On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." This verse is speaking of the future time when Jesus Christ will return to earth to set up His kingdom. All will proclaim, "Jesus is King!"
King of kings and Lord of lords is a victorious title. It signifies sovereignty over all kings and all lords. Everyone will be in submission to Him, King Jesus! No matter what person in history is the most victorious king or ruler on the earth, Jesus Christ is the King of kings! - See more at: http://goo.gl/EM87Ip

 2014/7/15 4:20









 Re: So starting again

Bretheren in opening this thread I should have gone straight to the word instead of theology.

So I ask again are we under both Moses and Christ? Are we under both the shadow and the substance? Are we under both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant?

I believe the answer can be found in these passages from Hebrews. Please consider the following.

Heb. 1:1-2
God, after He spoke to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, In these last days has spoken to us by His Son whom He appointed heir of all things and through whom also He made the world.

Heb7:22
and so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Heb.8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Heb. 8:13
When he said, "a new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.


Brethren I wound submit the above verses speak of a moving of redemptive history from the old covenant to the new covenant. There is no flat line view of scripture that speak of us being under two covenants but one. We are under the New Covenant administered by Jesus Christ and inaugurated by His blood at the cross.

This is why the writer of Hebrewes tells us that Christ has been appointed worthy of more glory than Moses (Heb. 3:3).

Thus it would seem reasonable to suggest that the New Testament is far more binding on the believer than the Old Testament.

My thoughts.

Blaine Scogin

 2014/7/15 7:40
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 Re:

I see what you saying Blain, but to draw your final conclusion could lead you down a path which discredits vast swaithes of the bible. The goal of the nt minister is to bring Jesus Christ to the fore in the OT.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/7/15 8:36Profile









 Re:

Zeek the intention of this thread is not to discredit the Old Testament or to deny that it is the Word if God. But to suggest that Christ is the greater, or rather the final revelation of God. As such it wound be reasonable to assume that the New Testament is more binding on the believer as it is the substance of the New Covenant. Rather He, Jesus is the substance, the reality of the New Covenant.

Thus I reason we are governed by Christ in Zion and not Moses on Sinai.

My thoughts.

Blaine

 2014/7/15 10:28
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 Re:


We are governed by Christ Himself the Person and not even the Scriptures though they are a means so therefore Christ supersedes even the Scriptures themselves.


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 2014/7/15 10:44Profile
ZekeO
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 Re:

What are asking then? For Christ is the end of the law for everyone who believes.

What other reason would there be for you to observe the law of Moses? For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/7/15 11:00Profile
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 Re:

Again,

I want to stress something really heavily here.

The OT is NOT synonymous with the old covenant!

Again, the old covenant is FOUND in what we call the OT, but the OT is not only the old covenant.

The NT is NOT the new covenant. The new covenant is fulfilled in the NT, but the New covenant is also all over the place in the OT. In fact, the Bereans looked in the OT to find out if what Paul was saying was true concerning the Messiah and the new covenant.

Moses and Christ are not pitted one against another. No, sir. The law was my schoolmaster to bring me to Christ. Now Christ is the fulfillment of the law for me.

Quote:

But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



I am righteous because of the faith I have in Jesus Christ, not because of the law. However, Paul makes it very clear that the law has a purpose. Read Romans and Galatians.

Christ is indeed the Greater One. Moses was just a shadow of Christ, and Christ is the fulfillment of the Prophet like him.

However look at what Paul said:

Quote:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.



What was he talking about when he said "all scripture"? He wasn't talking about the NT (although it applies now), I can tell you that much.

It is all useful, it is all authoritative, but it all must be applied for its intended purpose. And because so many have used the law for what it was not intended to be used for, we shy away from the entire OT.


Brother Blaine,

I love you, but this isn't calvinism vs. anything else. The issue is our view of Scriptures.

 2014/7/15 12:52Profile





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