| Poster | Thread | AndrewBruce
Member
Joined: 2005/4/12
Posts: 23
Blythewood, SC
| | Re: | | Sorry I've been out of this discussion for for so long, it seems that if I miss a day I miss a webpage worth of discussion!
I have a few question that I hope you will meditate on and pray over. How can you say that life evovled on earth and still believe the Genesis account? I can see no possible way that you can rectify these obviously opposing positions.
If God didn't create the earth in seven days then you need to cut out the ten commandments from your Bible because in Exodus 20 when God is giving the ten commandments to Moses He says in verse 11, "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day..." Moses also wrote the Creation account, Jesus says that he wrote the law, if Moses is lying about God giving him the ten commandments and wrong about creation then what are we to believe?
Jesus said in John 10:35 that "scripture cannot be broken" If Jesus was wrong then He was not the Son of God and if He was not the Son of God then we are all fools in need of much pity.
Another thing, our God is a God of order. He would not create half humans. Did they have souls or were they animals? Also, if the first sin isn't until Genesis 3 then why did these
"missing links" apparently die? Or do we need to throw out Genesis 3 too? If Adam and Eve were initially innocent then their supposed ancestors must have been too.
As for the flood account...
Jesus says:
"and they unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" Matthew 24:39
""...and the flood came and destroyed them all." Luke 17:27
Once again we have a big problem, if the flood recorded in Genesis (written down by Moses) did not destroy all of mankind then Jesus is not the Son of God.
Just as Jesus did, II Peter 3 compares the flood in Noah's time to the final judgment. Both are worldwide.
Once again I ask you to pray over these thoughts and ask the Lord to help you as you think about what exactly is your basis for truth. Is it science? Or is it God's word? Science changes, but "... the word of our God will stand forever." Isaiah 40:8
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Andrew Bruce
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|  2005/4/20 16:47 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Oil deposits came from where????? Oil deposits are made from ancient living things compressed over millions of years. No serious scientist will dispute this.
The problem with oil deposits is that the porosity of the rock is not sufficient to contain the pressure that the deposits are under for that length of time. The top blowing off of an oil rig is case in point. what sealed up that pressure all those years?
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/4/20 16:49 | Profile |
| | Re: | | AndrewBruce:
The creation story was believed to be literal by the people in the days of Moses and of Jesus, so they spoke of creation in this manner. In fact there is no way they could have spoken to people of that time in any other way. It would have made no sense whatsoever. Next, it is said that we should not put the Father to the test. You are getting close though when you say things like: "If Jesus was wrong then He was not the Son of God and if He was not the Son of God then we are all fools in need of much pity."
Jesus could only speak to the condition of the people who lived at that time.
Bub
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| | 2005/4/20 17:00 | | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | random or rigged? | | Quote:
God can't use random mutations?
think Jake, think, how can a 'random' mutation be part of God's 'rigging'? It is either 'random' or 'rigged'; you can't have it both ways.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/4/20 17:25 | Profile | Smokey
Member
Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| | Re: | | Bubbaguy
In all the time I have been reading your posts, I never knew that you had such a well developed sense of humor. Because if you are not "pulling our leg" in this discussion, you are a very confused man in need of much prayer. I believe the explenation of your confusion is found in Mat. 13:12. But while the man slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
I know that this will cause an uproar, but why are we so slow in calling a tare a tare??
LOL Greg :-?
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Greg
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| | 2005/4/20 19:13 | Profile | AndrewBruce
Member
Joined: 2005/4/12
Posts: 23
Blythewood, SC
| | Re: | | Quote:
bubbaguy wrote:
AndrewBruce:
The creation story was believed to be literal by the people in the days of Moses and of Jesus, so they spoke of creation in this manner. In fact there is no way they could have spoken to people of that time in any other way. It would have made no sense whatsoever. Next, it is said that we should not put the Father to the test. You are getting close though when you say things like: "If Jesus was wrong then He was not the Son of God and if He was not the Son of God then we are all fools in need of much pity."
Jesus could only speak to the condition of the people who lived at that time.
Bub
Bubbaguy
I asked that you pray and consider these things, in light of how quick and incomplete your response was I do not believe that you did either.
In an answer to your response...
In all of the time that Jesus was on earth He spoke the truth, sometimes His hearers did not understand Him sometimes they did. When He said that scripture cannot be broken He meant it. When He said that Noah's flood happened and it swept them all away, it did.
As for my comment being too "close," consider:
"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied." I Corinthians 15:17-19
By making these comments I am not testing our Lord but merely pointing to the obvious conclusion of your beleifs. Just a few verses later in this passage Paul says that death entered the world through Adam... Please refer to my earlier post for the completion of this thought.
Now, please examine and pray over all that is being said here and take your time in responding.
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Andrew Bruce
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| | 2005/4/20 20:35 | Profile |
| | Re: | |
AndrewBruce,
Please don't be offended by my too prompt response. I have been studying the evolution/creation issues for many years and have been asked these questions before.
There was a regional flood and there was a Noah. There's good evidence for this regional flood but not a worldwide deluge. So Jesus was speaking truth.
When you say you are "merely pointing to the obvious conclusion of your beleifs" my response is Huh? not obvious to me.
More and more I find the Christian faith as a balancing act. The deeds, directives and truths spoken by Jesus are mostly self-evident: Love your enemies, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc. These are the important things about Him, He challenged the corrupt, rich, vain, self-loving, and gave honor and comfort to the poor and downcast. He was without sin and offered Himself up for our salvation. I cling to these things tightly and will not let go.
But the world we live in also speaks truths to us and they cannot be ignored. Fossils of living things found in bedrock deep in the earth are clearly millions of years old. The complexity of these fossils move in a linear direction toward more complex forms. Birds and reptiles are clearly descended from dinosaurs. Humans and the chimpanzees share 98% of their DNA and this is not a coincidence, genetics are the engine that drives life.
So, I view much of the Bible as a reflection of the beliefs of the people who lived at that time and did not know about evolution. They sincerely believed their story and no doubt much of it is true.
Christianity is about faith in Jesus, not faith in the literalness and inerrancy of the creation story. Don't let the later shake any confidence in the former.
Bubbaguy
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| | 2005/4/21 13:39 | | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
There was a regional flood and there was a Noah. There's good evidence for this regional flood but not a worldwide deluge. So Jesus was speaking truth.
I don't know whether Jesus should feel gratified by your endorsement or not. Jesus was speaking the truth because the evidence satisfies you? What arrogant nonsense. Time and again you reveal just where you stand on these issues. The ultimate test is your power of reason. Jesus must bow to Jake's mental prowess. Well, Jake, I will tell you He won't and unless you bow to His Lordship you will die in your sins.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/4/21 14:13 | Profile | dann
Member
Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
| | Re: | | Quote:
AndrewBruce wrote:
Also consider the fact that if all scripture is not God breathed then how do we know what is? To reject some of the Bible is to reject all of the Bible. If we pick and choose what parts to believe it becomes a work of man, not the Word of God.
When I first became a Christian, I refused to believe everything I read in scripture. I reasoned (much like bubbaguy) that all science was truth, and the bible could only be trusted in those areas that I personally deemed relevant.
Thankfully, the Lord showed me (through a godly brother's good counsel) very early in my walk that this sort of practice was the most profoundly arrogant, self exalting, and anti-Christian practice that I could possibly have embarked upon. I was setting myself up as the judge of what was true in scripture. Those things that I liked - these I considered truth, and those things that I didn't like, or disagreed with my scientific opinion - these I cast aside as negligible - had the author's had the benefit of science, I felt certain that they would have written the bible differently.
I presumed that they were wrong, and presumed that science was correct.
Can you imagine the supreme arrogance?
But as AndrewBruce remarks, so it was remarked to me - if I pick and choose what I am going to believe, I am making my own Jesus - and worshipping my own, 'home-made' Jesus.
Naturally, my home-made Jesus was all love, and no justice. Naturally my home-made Jesus agreed with everything that was popularly believed by modern science (and when scientific opinion changed - my Jesus' opinion changed too). I thought that anyone who believed in the infallibility and inerrancy of scripture was zealous without knowledge - that is, they felt they had to throw common sense out the window in order to be a Christian.
But that all changed the day I repented of this arrogance, and submitted myself to the possibility that God's word was 100% true.
Like Bubbaguy, I had cut out my own version of what was truth, and no doubt, bubbaguy is satisfied and happy with his own religion - I certainly was. But the day I determined to believe the bible was the day it finally made sense (though I previously thought it had made sense - I had no idea what I was missing, and would have argued until I was blue in the face that it made entire sense - at least the parts I chose to believe...)
I determined one day that if God was not able to keep the bible accurate He wasn't God at all. So I allowed for the possibility that the bible was true - and determined to give God the benefit of the doubt. The moment I did, my understanding of scripture exploded - I mean things which never connected before suddenly became knit together in meaning - everything, --every-- --thing-- opened up like a rose.
Before I was willing to believe, I thought I understood - but the day I humbled myself before the word of God, that is the day I really started to understand.
Bubbaguy, you think you have something, but from where I am standing, having been in your shoes, you look so much like a cloud without water, it is painful to see.
Bubbaguy, Do you even understand that you have invented your own Jesus? Do you not acknowledge that by setting your own reason as the determining factor in "what is truth" that you have set yourself above God in authority? Do you not see how you presume a superior understanding because you presume to be right?
The beginning of wisdom for me, that is, the day that I realized I was wrong, was the day I was willing to honestly consider the thought that I could be wrong - it was an act of humility.
It is my opinion sir, that if you do not humble yourself enough to realistically allow for the possibility that bible is in fact unerring and infallible, you shall never understand it except in that beggarly, spiritually ineffective way, in which I previously had so great a proficiency, and in which I can only assume you still are mired in.
Dan
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Daniel van de Laar
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| | 2005/4/21 15:10 | Profile |
| | Re: | |
So, its God in a box with a pretty bow. All neat and tidy for you. No light from outside can enter. The explanation for everything under the sun is in this one book.
You are adding to what Jesus required of believers and you (will) repell many thinking people away from God by your insistence on a literal seven day creation story. This kind of thinking and beliefs are driving people who may otherwise have come to God and Jesus towards agnosticism at best.
For anyone who has a diffent opinion on the Scriptures the door to your fellowship is CLOSED.
I'd say that, perhaps unknowingly and even in good intention, this belief system works against God and Christ.
Bub
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| | 2005/4/21 15:33 | |
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