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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

what is vain repatition in the cotext of pagan pray,,that jesus forbided ,,,,i think that it is this what we read here ,,l cant with a clear concence pray like that ,,has any here tryed repatisious mantra prayer

 2014/7/14 5:24Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

breand i find it a huge contradiction ,that you would preach the spirit batism as the means to reach the holy intamant leval with god ,,and then talk about christian mystasisim as the path

 2014/7/14 5:27Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

just thought i would post some of what john weasly wrote about mysticism....

........John Wesley (AD 1703-1791)
After living a very religious life (he was even a missionary to America), but not knowing the Lord, John Wesley was born- again in AD 1738. His own experience alone, of having great piety without being born-again, should have cautioned him against promoting the life of a devout mystic (Madame Guyon), who followed the false doctrines of Rome. Devotion alone is not proof of knowing God, as Wesley preached in his famous “The Almost Christian” sermon. In his early life, Wesley was clearly opposed to mystical teachings.

AD 1742
“…I made an end of Madam Guyon’s ‘Short Method of Prayer’ and ‘Les Torrentes Spirituelles.’ Ah, my brethren! I can answer your riddle, now I have ploughed with your heifer. The very words I have so often heard some of you use, are not your own, no more than they are God’s. They are only retailed from this poor Quietist [see Appendix A on Quietism]; and that with the utmost faithfulness. Oh, that ye knew how much wiser is God than man! Then would you drop Quietists and Mystics together, and at all hazards keep to the plain, practical, written word of God.” -The Journal of the Reverend John Wesley http://goo.gl/OJV5Og

AD 1772
“…I have industriously guarded them from meddling with the Mystic writers, as they are usually called; because these are the most artful refiners of it that ever appeared in the Christian world, and the most bewitching. There is something like enchantment in them. When you get into them, you know not how to get out. Some of the chief of these, though in different ways, are Jacob Behmen and Madame Guyon. My dear friend, come not into their secret; keep in the plain, open Bible way. Aim at nothing higher, nothing deeper, than the religion described at large in our Lord’s Sermon upon the Mount, and briefly summed up by St. Paul in the 13th chapter [of the First Epistle] to the Corinthians….All the high-sounding or mysterious expressions used by that class of writers either mean no more than this or they mean wrong. O beware of them! Leave them off before they are meddled with.” http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1772/

AD 1773
“For what is prayer but the desire of the soul expressed in words to God, either inwardly or outwardly. How, then, will you teach them to express a desire who feel no desire at all? When, therefore, Madame Guyon talks in that manner, it often makes me afraid that both she and her teacher, Archbishop Fenelon, talked by rote of the things they knew not. Both of them had an amazing genius, but I doubt full little experience. It is exceeding certain neither his nor her writings are likely to do us any solid service. We have all the gold that is in them without the dross, which is often not only useless but dangerous. Let you and I keep the good old way.”
http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1773/

AD 1773
“Madame Guyon was a good woman and is a fine writer, but very far from judicious. Her writings will lead any one who is fond of them into unscriptural Quietism. They strike at the root, and tend to make us rest contented without either faith or works. It is certain the Scripture by ‘prayer’ almost always means vocal prayer. And whosoever intermits this for any time will neither pray with the voice nor the heart. It is therefore our wisdom to force ourselves to prayer– to pray whether we can pray or no. And many times while we are so doing the fire will fall from heaven, and we shall know our labor was not in vain.” http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1773/

Saying that someone is a “good woman” or a “fine writer”, is not the same as saying she is a Christian woman or an edifying writer. It is probably the following bad advice by Guyon that Wesley was addressing in the quote above: Guyon advised, “Now that your soul has been called to a state of inward silence, you should not burden yourself with vocal prayers.” (Chadwick, 93) At this point though, in 1774, Wesley started compromising, acknowledging the “excellent things” in Guyon’s books, and recommended the recipient of his letter to read only those things which he published, but two years later, he published a biography of Madame Guyon (although it was an abridged version)!

AD 1774
“There are many excellent things in Madame Guyon’s works, and there are many that are exceedingly dangerous. The more so because the good things make way for the mischievous ones. And it is not easy unless for those of much experience, to distinguish the one from the other. Perhaps, therefore, it might be safest for you chiefly to confine yourself to what we have published.”http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1774

AD 1776
“John Wesley owned many works by Madame Guyon and in 1776 he republished her autobiography which had been translated into English by a Quaker. http://goo.gl/gf8CVy

AD 1776
“Concerning Madame Guyon, a mystic believed by many to be on the cutting edge of spirituality in her time, he [John Wesley] cautioned [in the preface to his version of Madame Guyon's life]: ‘The grand source of all her mistakes was this, the not being guided by the written word. She did not take the Scripture for the rule of her actions; at most it was but the secondary rule. Inward impressions, which she called inspirations, were her primary rule. The written word was not a lantern to her feet, a light in all her paths. No; she followed another light, the outward light of her confessors, and the inward light of her own spirit.’ (An extract of the Life of Madam Guion. By John Wesley, M.A,
http://goo.gl/2E6vF2

AD 1789
“Not that I would recommend a cold, dead, formal prayer, out of which both love and desire, hope and fear, are excluded. Such seems to have been “the calm and undisturbed method of prayer,” so strongly recommended by the late Bishop Hoadly, which occasioned for some years so violent a contest in the religious world. Is it not probable that the well-meaning bishop had met with some of the Mystics or Quietists (such as Madam Guion, or the Archbishop [Fenelon] of Cambray) and that having no experience of these things he patched together a theory of his own as nearly resembling theirs as he could? But it is certain nothing is farther from apathy than real, scriptural devotion. It excites, exercises, and gives full scope to all our nobler passions; and excludes none but those that are wild, irrational, and beneath the dignity of man.” http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/117/

In the quote above, Wesley also recognized the danger of the irrational, which Guyon did not see as a danger. Guyon advised, “…let your soul linger sweetly and silently on the Scripture verse you have read. Do not try to reason out the truth in it…” (Chadwick, 17) Guyon further confirmed, “We must, therefore, continue steadfastly and immovable in our abandonment, without listening to the voice of natural reason.” (Chadwick, 36) This anti-rational stance is common in Guyon and other mystics, but the downplaying of logic opens up the floodgate for irrational and unbiblical “revelations.” More on this in the section about Watchman Nee.

Later in life (AD 1789) Wesley still saw the error’s of Madame Guyon’s ways, and still rightly promoted “scriptural devotion,” in contrast to mysticism, but the damage was already done. In Wesley’s abridged version of Guyon’s life, he had already made a partial acceptance, and a half-hearted endorsement of her teachings, even though he gave due caution for his readers, saying “The grand source of all her mistakes was this, the not being guided by the written word.” Nowadays many who promote Guyon’s works refer to John Wesley to bolster their claim, as though Wesley had made a full endorsement of Guyon’s works. This is one of the dangers of compromise- the often unseen (though at other times clearly seen) negative influence it brings to many others.

 2014/7/14 5:43Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

"The Practice of the Presence of God" is a well-accepted Christian classic.

My comment abolut Brother Lawrence being Catholic was not intended to be taken seriously.

AW Tozer and Wesley both thought highly of this work, so I guess Warren is in pretty good company. In fact Tozer thought highly of a lot of the Christian mystics.

Gary, those "discernment" websites might have some value but most are pretty over the top.

There is nothing wrong wih trying to keep God in the forefront of your mind throughout the day. it is almost impossible to do but it is a good goal to have.

"Breath prayers" are simply one sentence prayers. "Thank you God for that beautiful sunrise." "Lord be with me as I make this telephone call." "Bless that guy that just cut me off in traffic."

I think the idea is that if we are trying to keep God in the front of our minds then breath prayers will come naturally. The alternative is our natural man coming our naturally, and who wants that?


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Todd

 2014/7/14 6:33Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

so you saying that is different from the mantra pray that is common place now amongst christians ,,,and are you saying this is what jesus comandad us to do when he said pray with out ceasing?

i just don't see this in scripture ,,if it is so important ,,why is is not taught

brother tozer is a terrible example he,, he spoke highly of yoga as well which i think is verry confusing for people


do you pray like that all day

i never got anything from a discernment web site,,what i poster was an indorsment web site so to speak

wesley also cautioned about mystics as well.

so do you think we are all living in sin if we dont pray with out ceasing in this same manner ,,is this what god is calling us to do

 2014/7/14 6:49Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Breath Prayer: Practice


Breath prayer is a short petition, repeated in the space of one inhalation-exhalation cycle, that acknowledges the natures of both the Lord and the petitioner.

1. Sit comfortably with your back straight and close your eyes.

2. Pay attention to your breathing. Focus on breathing will probably exaggerate the intake and output a little. Wait until a comfortable rhythm has returned.

3. Ask Jesus to be present, to lead, to guide, and to protect. Invite him to draw you into the community of the Trinity.

4. Wait silently until you feel ready to begin praying.

5. When you are ready, pray in your breathing rhythm.
◾Inhale: Lord, Jesus Christ,
◾Pause: Son of God,
◾Exhale: have mercy on me, a sinner.

6. Use a prayer rope, touching one knot or bead for each repetition. A typical prayer rope is strung with a sequence of one large bead to every ten small ones. The small beads remind one to focus on the prayer. The large one allows for a pause. You may simply touch each of your fingers in succession. Through the first ten repetitions, you might pray aloud, considering the words of the prayer. As distractions arise, gently return your concentration to the words. (Suggestions for dealing with distractions can be found under

this seems macanhical and reptedtive ,,,hri krishners pray like this as well

that was from a sight called ten ways to pray

 2014/7/14 6:55Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

hey dont get me wrong if it is bibical and comanded from god as how we should pray then i will do this

i used to medatate in a similar way early in the peace ,,but i stoped after believing it was just like hindisim

 2014/7/14 6:59Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

jesus must have made a mistake when asked teach us to pray ,,,he said pary like this our father who is in heaven ,,ectra ... if i wasnt swuch a bible believer ,i would be strugeling ,,,,,,,so i ask can any one give one example of breath praying or centering prayer ,,that i might have missed ,,thanks brethern i just want to do what the bible tells me to

blessings

 2014/7/14 7:16Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Gary- That "breath prayer" instruction you posted looks like a bunch of hocus locus to me. That is not what I am talking about.

I am talking about walking in the Spirit to the extent that a prayer is always on our lips-- a running conversation with God.

I am not talking about " centering down" or some other mystical concept.

I am against mixing New Age with Christianity which is what streams like Bill Johnson's Bethel church are doing.


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Todd

 2014/7/14 8:25Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3466
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 Re:

Some of the Catholic mystics had a deep relationship with the Lord, and we are greatly blessed today to have their writings.

Andrew Murray, William Law, and A. W. Tozer are just a few men of God that had much to say on the presence of God being experienced in the life of a Christian.

"Tozer explains that a “mystic” is one who partakes in the “personal spiritual experience” which saints of Biblical and post-Biblical times enjoyed. He is speaking, he explains, of “the evangelical mystic who has been brought by the gospel into intimate fellowship with the Godhead” (vi). The source of theology for the mystic is “no less and no more” than what is found in the Bible; fellowship in the same commitment to truth that the reformers and Puritans enjoyed.

So how does the mystic differ from other Christians? Tozer answers, “Because [the mystic] experiences his faith down in the depths of his sentiment being while the other does not. He exists in a world of spiritual reality. He is quietly, deeply, and sometimes almost ecstatically aware of the Presence of God in his own nature and in the world around him. His religious experience is sometime elemental, as old as time and the creation. It is immediate acquaintance with God by union with the Eternal Son. It is to know that which passes knowledge” (vi).

Mike


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Mike

 2014/7/14 8:27Profile





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