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Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
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Whittier CA USA

 A Pentecostal Pastor in General Support of Strange Fire Conference

Original Title of Article: A Pentecostal in (General) Support of the Strange Fire Conference

Date of post: Oct. 24th, 2013

by Josiah Batten

The issue of John MacArthur’s recent Strange Fire Conference (and forthcoming book) is all the rage in the Evangelical blogosphere right now. Truth be told, I’m impressed by the attention the whole thing is drawing. If you know anything about MacArthur you know he is a cessationist, and that he has promoted cessationism publicly for quite some time.

I gather the issue is not MacArthur’s cessationism, which is well-known. The issue is that MacArthur has thrown down the theological gauntlet. He’s not merely saying continuationism is wrong, he’s saying it’s wrong and dangerous. While I was not at the conference, reports I read had MacArthur likening Charismatics to Mormonism, saying that Evangelicals will challenge 14 million Mormons, but are silent in the face of half a billion Charismatics. This is inflammatory, perhaps even reckless, speech.

But as you may have gathered from the title, I’m not writing this post to point out MacArthur’s errors or where I disagree with him (though such disagreements do exist). That I’m writing in general support of Strange Fire implies I have particular differences with the conference and some of its themes. This post is about my support of the conference, not my differences with it.

You might be curious about how I, as a Pentecostal pastor, could possibly support any conference that fundamentally challenges the theological foundation of my movement and condemns many of its practices. My reasons are simple:

1. Any error John MacArthur espoused at the conference, and any recklessness he demonstrated, is far less than the errors and recklessness we see in much of the modern Charismatic movement.

We may say that things like barking in the Spirit represent the fringe of the Pentecostal Charismatic movement. In some cases, this is true. I have no doubt that if the General Superintendent of the Assemblies of God (George O. Wood) saw a congregant doing this that he would confront them about it. But George O. Wood is, unfortunately, NOT the public face of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. The most prominent and popular Pentecostal/Charismatic pastors tend to be TBN broadcasters. And what we get from TBN is error after error, from false prophecies galore to Prosperity “Gospel” nonsense. People hear “Charismatic” and they think “Todd Bentley” or “Bethel Church, Redding.”

I know many Charistmatic/Pentecostal leaders have responded to Strange Fire with calls for distinction. We want a distinction between those with common sense and Biblical fidelity in our movement and those who lack this (like Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, and nearly every other pastor on TBN). But let’s be honest here, we Pentecostals have failed to make such a distinction, and that brings me to my second point.

2. Pentecostals and Charismatics are allergic to doctrinal distinction and discernment.

I wish I could say I was lying about the sentence I just wrote, but I am not. We want cessationists like John MacArthur to draw careful distinctions between different groups in our movement, but we ourselves refuse to draw such distinctions. This refusal has primarily come in the form of SILENCE regarding false teachers and false prophecies. While we Pentecostal pastors and academics often do not buy the Prosperity nonsense, we refuse to condemn those who teach it.

A few years ago, as an undergraduate student, I attempted to publish a paper in a peer-reviewed Pentecostal/Charismatic journal. In retrospect, my article was probably not up to academic par (I was an undergraduate student, mind you). The basic idea behind the article was to point out certain denials of the sufficiency of Scripture within some of the more popular teachings in our movement. I went after, for example, C. Peter Wagner and his book 7 Power Principles I learned After Seminary. I also challenged Prosperity teaching and one or two other things. My article was rejected for publication, but the editors of the journal did not cite academic quality (which could have been amended by adding a few more sources and revising a few footnotes) as the reason for the refusal. Instead, they said while they agreed with much of the content of my article it was too divisive and would not be published. I could have accepted something like “You don’t have the academic credentials we want” or “You need to add additional sources” or something like that. But no, the stated reason for the refusal was divisiveness.

I recognize the value of unity, but a unity not grounded in and centered on the truth is merely a superficial unity. If we Pentecostals want John MacArthur to make distinctions when he calls out the Charismatic movement for its abuses, then maybe we should be the first ones making distinctions and calling out heresy and excess where we find it.

Where are the orthodox Pentecostals condemning Oneness Pentecostalism (modalism)? Do we hold the nature and character of the Triune God in such low esteem? Where is the unified front of Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors speaking out against the Prosperity Gospel? Where are the Pentecostals warning about the creeping influence of Open Theism in our movement? Where are the Pentecostals upholding and demanding the regulative principle of worship in our services?

The answer is, sadly, that the Pentecostals/Charismatics speaking out on such issues are the real fringe. We put ourselves in the difficult position of upholding truth and doctrine in the midst of a movement that tends to value experience. When we do speak out against abuses and false teachings, even our brothers who agree with us tend to warn us about being too “divisive” and not being “sensitive to the Holy Spirit.” Perhaps those who are truly sensitive to the Holy Spirit are those offended by the abuses and lies taught in His Name. If we fail to expose known lies we become implicated in their continuation.

3. The false teachers have more influence than we think or admit.

While we’re on this topic, the abuses and excesses of the Charismatic movement are often rejected by certain pastors (though they are accepted and promoted by others) and denominational leaders. But let’s not forget the people in the pew. As an associate pastor, I often speak out against the Prosperity Gospel. But I know, despite this fact, that there are certain congregants who continue to believe it. In my involvement with Chi Alpha I’ve often spoken out against Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, and T.D. Jakes. It seldom fails that I offend a brother or sister when I do so.

Why does this matter? Because I’m on staff at a small church. I’m around average Pentecostals in my congregation and campus ministry. I’m not constantly around denominational leaders or scholars. And among most congregants the likes of Osteen, Meyer, Copeland, and Shuttlesworth are incredibly popular.

I’ve heard demands for MacArthur to evaluate us by looking at French Arrington or Stanley Horton. To be completely honest, my congregants have no clue who those men are (apart from perhaps a vague familiarity established by sermon references). My congregants do know who Kenneth Hagin is, or who T.D. Jakes is. I don’t think MacArthur’s concern is primarily with the Pentecostals who hold Horton in high esteem. It’s with the congregants who hold Jakes and Copeland in high esteem, and given that priority, MacArthur’s approach makes more sense.

MacArthur wasn’t looking to spark a debate in peer-reviewed literature. He was looking to engage at the popular level, and he has been wildly successful at this. It’s the popular level where the false teachers and excesses are often a problem, and it makes sense to aim there.

It should also be noted that TBN is exported to other countries. They broadcast all over the world. They broadcast to Christians who don’t have the benefit of owning their own Bibles. The incredible damage of Prosperity teaching in world missions must be carefully observed.

4. We routinely ignore the regulative principle of worship.

Much of MacArthur’s criticism has been aimed not merely at doctrinal issues like the Prosperity Gospel, but at practical issues like what is allowed in worship. If you’re Todd Bentley, you say the Holy Spirit demands things like kicking women in the face. If you’re like most Pentecostals/Charismatics, you permit being “slain in the Spirit” despite the fact there’s scant Biblical evidence for such a practice. If you’re like me, you think we should only promote and permit that which can rightly be found to be the normative practice of Scripture.

Honestly, this puts me at odds with many fellow Pentecostals/Charismatics. The people promoting the really strange practices, people like C. Peter Wagner and his “power principles,” and their followers are incorrigible. They are not open to rebuke, even if that rebuke comes from the Bible. I speak from experience as a Pentecostal. But we Pentecostals have allowed things that seemed harmless, even though they don’t seem to come from Scripture, and now we are increasingly seeing things that are harmful and that still don’t come from Scripture. But we have no experience saying “no” to anything in worship, so we implicitly or explicitly say “yes” to everything.

What’s really concerning about the whole thing in most Pentecostal/Charismatic circles a debate about the regulative principle of worship is not even underway. We just don’t care about it. We’re at risk of nullifying the commands of God for the sake of our traditions. We need to rigorously Biblically evaluate our movement’s practices in worship.

5. We functionally ignore Sola Scriptura.

This point follows from the last one. While we tend to uphold Sola Scriptura intellectually and verbally, we tend to ignore it functionally. This is true not only in worship, but in evangelism, church growth, counseling, and church government. Let’s be honest, most of our Pentecostal churches (mine included) are run by boards of trustees that have more in common with corporate America than anything we find in the Bible.

We want to grow our churches by applying the marketing strategies of corporate America. We, a movement dedicated to the work of the Holy Spirit, consistently outsource our counseling to bloody secularists. We buy into pop-psychology about love languages.

If what I’ve just said sounds like Evangelicalism as a whole, you can probably understand why John MacArthur is so upset. I don’t think all (or even most) of the above problems originated in our movement, but our movement’s adoption of the above practices along with it’s explosive growth has gone a long way to carry these things further into the identity of the broader Evangelical movement. We Pentecostals and Charismatics are now very influential, and we haven’t always used our influence intentionally or responsibly.

We need to recapture our dedication to the sufficiency of Scripture and the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. We need to articulate our understanding of spiritual gifts in such a way as to not conflict with the sufficiency of Scripture. If the effect of our teaching is that people look to a subjective experience for guidance and assurance before they look to Scripture for those things then our teaching is dangerous and needs to be corrected.

Conclusion

I know in what I’ve said I probably have not sounded much like a Pentecostal. But it is because I love my heritage and my movement that I grieve deeply for it. What we love greatly is capable of hurting us deeply. And I have been hurt by the abuses and lack of Biblical fidelity in my own movement.

This doesn’t mean I agree with everything John MacArthur says. I remain a continuationist, he a cessationist. We have some real differences. This doesn’t mean I always agree with the way John MacArthur stated his rebukes, some of them were too general and lacked necessary distinction.

But an overly broad condemnation of real problems is better than no condemnation of the problems at all. We Pentecostals and Charismatics needed to be offended, I’m afraid it may be the only thing that will make us think critically and Biblically about ourselves as a movement. And for this offense I want to thank John MacArthur and the participants in the Strange Fire Conference. The most hurtful thing about that conference is not the broad generalizations, sweeping condemnations, or lack of distinctions. For me as a Pentecostal the most hurtful thing about the Strange Fire Conference is my knowledge that far too many of the criticisms are true.

God bless,

Joey

Source: http://questiontradition.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/a-pentecostal-in-general-support-of-the-strange-fire-conference/


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Oracio

 2014/6/27 21:40Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
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Whittier CA USA

 Re: A Pentecostal Pastor in General Support of Strange Fire Conference

I came across this article in the OP when reading the interview of John MacArthur on which there is another recent thread. In that interview MacArthur refers to and quotes from this article by this pentecostal pastor and says he was very encouraged by it. MacArtur also says in that interview that he sometimes enjoys fellowship with another pentecostal pastor despite their differences. So that tells me that MacArthur's main motive for producing the strange fire conference seems to have been to confront the abuses of the charismatic movement, not to disfellowship from solid continuationist believers.


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Oracio

 2014/6/27 22:20Profile









 Re: A Pentecostal Pastor in General Support of Strange Fire Conference

The issue with the Strange Fire conference is cessationism. True MacArthur said the conference was to call attention to the abuses of the charismatic movement. But that was against the back drop of his theological paradyne of cessationusm.

What is puzzling is that John MacArthur is a capable Bible teacher. Yet the scriptural evidence he cites to support the cessation of certain spiritual gifts is sorely lacking. One has to resort to theological twisting to defend this doctrine.

I have asked repeatedly on threads in this forum to present proof from the scriptures that God no.longer works in the miraculous ad He did in the New Testament. To the best of my knowledge no scriptures were given.

Oracio I gather from your post you hold to cessationusm. Brother what scriptures do you use to support your view.

Bearmaster.

 2014/6/27 22:37









 Re:

By the way Dr. Michael Brown who carries academic credentials equal to John MacArthur has asked for dialog with MacArthur on the issue of cessationism. So far John MacArthur gas not responded to Michael Brown.

Dr. Brown is also a completed Jew and a Spirit filled man of God. He has spoken out on the abuses of the charismatic movement even before MacArthur did.

Bear

 2014/6/27 22:43
UntoBabes
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Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon

 Re:

All error is satanic in origin is something John MacArthur often says,
No one has an issue with John MacArthur for pointing out the errors of the Charismatic movement including Charismatics such as the brother who wrote that article. But That is not what John MacArthur is doing. He went far beyond that to attacking the Holy Spirit himself.
I hear so much talk about the strange fire camp, but none about the NO Fire camp. Both of these camps are sending people to hell. You can not overcome error with error.

Couldn't find anything better than the words of George Whitefield to answer John MacArthur, so, here you have it:


" A great noise hath been made of late, about the word enthusiast, and it has been cast upon the preachers of the gospel, as a term of reproach; but every Christian, in the proper sense of the word, must be an enthusiast; that is, must be inspired of God or have God, by his Spirit, in him. St. Peter tells us, “we have many great and precious promises, that we may be made partakers of the divine nature;” our Lord prays, “that we may be one, as the Father and he are one;” and our own church, in conformity to these texts of Scripture, in her excellent communion-office, tells us, that those who receive the sacrament worthily, “dwell in Christ, and Christ in them; that they are one with Christ, and Christ with them.” And yet, Christians must have their names cast out as evil, and ministers in particular, must be looked upon as deceivers of the people, for affirming, that we must be really united to God, by receiving the Holy Ghost. Be astonished, O heavens, at this!

Indeed, I will not say, all our letter-learned preachers deny this doctrine in express words; but however, they do in effect; for they talk professedly against inward feelings, and say, we may have God's Spirit without feeling it, which is in reality to deny the thing itself. And had I a mind to hinder the progress of the gospel, and to establish the kingdom of darkness, I would go about, telling people, they might have the Spirit of God, and yet not feel it.

But to return: When our Lord was about to ascend to his Father and our Father, to his God and our God he gave his apostles this commission, “Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” And accordingly, by authority of this commission, we do teach and baptize in this, and every age of the church. And though we translate the words, “baptizing them in the name;” yet, as the name of God, in the Lord's prayer, and several other places, signifies his nature, they might as well be translated thus, “baptizing them into the nature of the Father, into the nature of the Son, and into the nature of the Holy Ghost.” Consequently, if we are all to be baptized into the nature of the Holy Ghost, before our baptism be effectual to salvation, it is evident, that we all must actually receive the Holy Ghost, and ere we can say, we truly believe in Jesus Christ. For no one can say, that Jesus is my Lord, but he that has thus received the Holy Ghost.

Numbers of other texts might be quoted to make this doctrine, if possible, still more plain; but I am astonished, that any who call themselves members; much more, that many, who are preachers in the church of England, should dare so much as to open their lips against it. And yet, with grief I speak it, God is my Judge, persons of the established church seem more generally to be ignorant of it, than any dissenters whatsoever.

But, my dear brethren, what have you been doing? How often have your hearts given your lips the lie how often have you offered to God the sacrifice of fools, and had your prayers turned into sin, if you approve of, and use our church-liturgy, and yet deny the Holy Spirit to be the portion of all believers? In the daily absolution, the minister exhorts the people to pray, that “God would grant them repentance, and his Holy Spirit:” in the Collect for Christmas day, we beseech God, “that he would daily renew us by his Holy Spirit;” in the last week's Collect, we prayed that “we may evermore rejoice in the comforts of the Holy Ghost;” and in the concluding prayer, which we put up every day, we pray, not only that the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, but that “the fellowship of the Holy Ghost” may be with us all evermore.

But further, a solemn season, to some, is not approaching; I mean the Easter-days, at the end of which, all that are to be ordained to the office of a deacon, are in the sight of God, and in the presence of the congregation, to declare, that “they trust they are inwardly moved by the Holy Ghost, to take upon them that administration;” and to those, who are to be ordained priests, the bishop is to repeat these solemn words, “Receive thou the Holy Ghost, now committed unto them, by the imposition of our hands.” And yet, O that I had no reason to speak it, many that use our forms, and many who have witnessed this good confession, yet dare to both talk and preach against the necessity of receiving the Holy Ghost now; and not only so, but cry out against those, who do insist upon it, as madmen, enthusiasts, schismatics, and underminers of the established constitution.

But you are the schismatics, you are the bane of the church of England, who are always crying out, “the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord;” and yet starve the people out of our communion, by feeding them only with the dry husks of dead morality, and not bringing out to them the fatted calf; I mean, the doctrines of the operations of the blessed Spirit of God. But here is the misfortune; many of us are not led by, and therefore no wonder that we cannot talk feelingly of, the Holy Ghost; we subscribe to our articles, and make them serve for a key to get into church-preferment, and then preach contrary to those very articles to which we have subscribed. Far be it from me, to charge all the clergy with this hateful hypocrisy; no, blessed be God, there are some left among us, who dare maintain the doctrines of the Reformation, and preach the truth as it is in Jesus. But I speak the truth in Christ, I lie not; the generality of the clergy are fallen from our articles, and do not speak agreeable to them, or to the form of sound words delivered in the Scriptures; woe be unto such blind leaders of the blind! How can you escape the damnation of hell? It is not all your learning (falsely so called) it is not all your preferments can keep you from the just judgment of God. Yet a little while, and we shall all appear before the tribunal of Christ; there, there will I meet you; there Jesus Christ, the great Shepherd and Bishop of souls, shall determine who are the false prophets; who are the wolves in sheep's clothing. Those who say, that we must now receive and feel the Holy Ghost, or those who exclaim against it, as the doctrine of devils."
George Whitefield




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Fifi

 2014/6/27 22:45Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
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Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I have asked repeatedly on threads in this forum to present proof from the scriptures that God no.longer works in the miraculous ad He did in the New Testament. To the best of my knowledge no scriptures were given.

Oracio I gather from your post you hold to cessationusm. Brother what scriptures do you use to support your view.

Bearmaster.


Nowhere have I stated that I am a cessationist. Personally I am still praying about where I should stand concerning these differing views on the gifts. There are good arguments on both sides and I have been on both sides at times. I know many godly cessationists who are on fire for God and preach the gospel and suffer for the gospel's sake. I have seen the Lord use cessationist preachers mightily in the conversion of lost souls.

My concern is with this attitude of strong disdain toward all cessionist believers coming from many contunuationists, many of which are on this forum. Preaching against MacArthur and his ministry and falsely accusing him and misrepresenting him will not help accomplish anything but discord within the Body of Christ brother.

As to your question about scriptural support for cessationism this is an article which I believe gives good arguments(I'm not saying I fully agree with it because like I said I'm still praying about this issue):

http://www.gty.org/resources/distinctives/dd06/the-gift-of-tongues

Quote:
What is puzzling is that John MacArthur is a capable Bible teacher. Yet the scriptural evidence he cites to support the cessation of certain spiritual gifts is sorely lacking. One has to resort to theological twisting to defend this doctrine.


So because MacArthur is a capable Bible teacher do you expect him to have perfect theology? Even if he is wrong on this issue why should you be so surprised about that? He is a fallible man. I don't agree with his pre-trib premillenial view but I don't see that as a reason to discredit his ministry.

Quote:
By the way Dr. Michael Brown who carries academic credentials equal to John MacArthur has asked for dialog with MacArthur on the issue of cessationism. So far John MacArthur gas not responded to Michael Brown.

Dr. Brown is also a completed Jew and a Spirit filled man of God. He has spoken out on the abuses of the charismatic movement even before MacArthur did.

Bear


Then why did Dr. Brown recently team up with Benny Hinn and do an extended teaching series with Hinn on Hinn's program?


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Oracio

 2014/6/27 23:15Profile
Oracio
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 Re:

Untobabes, that was a great piece from Whitefield on the need for receiving the Holy Ghost at conversion as opposed to having a dead religion that does not save. That was the whole issue during the time of the Great Awakening. MacArthur would have no disagreement with that piece from Whitefield.

Here's a short piece taken from one of MacArthur's articles on assurance of salvation and the witness of the Spirit(Let's be careful not to quickly write someone off and wrongly characterize them as someone holding to certain erroneous views. That happens when we have an unjustified spiteful attitude toward someone):

"Do You Experience the Ministry of the Holy Spirit?...Let's look at other ministries of the Spirit. What about fellowship with God? It is the Spirit who leads you to cry out "Abba! Father!" (Gal. 4:6) as a sign of your intimacy and communion with God. What about praise? Who is it that lifts your heart to praise and adore God? Who is it that compels you to sing with meaning and devotion? In Ephesians 5:19, Paul explains that the filling of the Spirit leads to "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord." What about the fruit of the Spirit, which Paul describes as "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, [and] self-control"? (Gal. 5:22-23) Those attitudes are spiritual graces. Have they graced your life as a whole?

Have you ever ministered in a spiritual way through helping someone, giving to someone, or speaking to someone about Christ? Those are evidences of the Spirit of God. Do you actually experience His ministry in your life? In Romans 8:16, Paul explains that "the Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God." Now don't expect Him to whisper into your ear, "You're a Christian, you're a Christian, believe Me you're a Christian!" There's no audible voice, nothing esoteric or mystical, but something very concrete. He bears witness by providing you with evidence of His presence in your life--by illuminating Scripture to you, drawing you into fellowship with God through prayer and praise, producing spiritual fruit to grace your life, and enabling you to minister effectively to others.

If the Spirit is in your life, that's evidence that you abide in God and He in you (1 John 4:13). So be assured. Don't let your heart condemn you, damn you, tell you you're not a believer. Recognize the Spirit's work in you. There's no reason to doubt and be unstable."

Source: http://www.gty.org/resources/positions/p06/is-it-real


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Oracio

 2014/6/28 11:16Profile









 Re:

Oracio because I disagree with J. MacArthur on how the Holy Spirit is moving among the nations is not being disrespectful toward him or you. To the best of my knowledge my posts have not conveyed any signs of disrespect toward him. If so then I humbly repent of such. I have endeavored as often stated in this forum to play the ball and not the man. Where I have failed in this then I humbly ask forgiveness.

But brother, if anything, it is our brother, J. MacArthur in his comments about Chsrusmatics who has implied they are deceived and bound for hell. So who is disrespecting who here.

Again I affirm that John MacArthur is a gifted Bible teacher. And many in the charismatic movement have profited much under his ministry.This includes myself. But brother, J. MacArthur is the one who has declared war on the charismatic believers. Not the other way around. And to disagree with His theology of cessationism is not being disrespectful. But being Berean in searching the scriptures.

By the way I have never mentioned breaking fellowship with anyone over this issue. Again it would be the MacArthur camp breaking the fellowship.

Must go now. But hope my post clarifies some points. Much blessing on you.

Respectfully Blaine

 2014/6/28 11:35
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Amen brother Bear, I appreciate and accept that. I too apologize if I unknowingly exaggerated on your strong stance against MacArthur's cessationism.

It just grieves me to see discord among the brethren over non-essentials. I know and fellowship with believers on both sides of this, and I know that some continuationist brethren absolutely despise MacArthur and cessationism to the point of flat out disrespect and completely speaking out against him and his ministry.

I know MacArthur is not completely innocent here but two wrongs don't make a right, right? He probably did exaggerate a bit in some blanket statements about Charismatics as a whole. But I also believe he has made it abundantly clear that he does not mean to say every single charismatic or continuationist is unsaved. I believe what he meant is that the main stream charismatic movement is by and large filled with false converts and that's largely due to the abuses and false teaching within the movement.


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Oracio

 2014/6/28 12:37Profile
AbideinHim
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Posts: 5185
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 Re:

"It just grieves me to see discord among the brethren over non-essentials. I know and fellowship with believers on both sides of this, and I know that some continuationist brethren absolutely despise MacArthur and cessationism to the point of flat out disrespect and completely speaking out against him and his ministry."

Brother,

if it grieves you to see discord among the brethren, then why even bring up the "Strange fire" conference? I can't think of anything that is more devisive and has created more discord in the Body of Christ than the Strange Fire conference.

John MacArthur has made some serious false statements against Charismatics. He is clearly in error about the gifts of the Spirit and cessationism, and he criticizes anyone that does not see it like he does, even to the point of questioning their salvation.

So once again, if you are for the unity of the Spirt among the brethren, why even bring up this conference? It is only going to bring in division on this website, and I hope Greg and Paul nip it in the bud before it gets full blown.

Mike


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Mike

 2014/6/28 13:01Profile





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