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 Re:


In most of the accounts I have read or heard the dream was a step to lead them to a christian, to a bible where they read about Isa. So there are probably not many that received a born-again experience during the dream. I did watch a video of one account of that happening which is glorious.

The Word of God is very important and God uses it to see people accept the Lord.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/6/26 22:14Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1711


 Re:

Greg, Thank you very much for posting what Mc Arthur originally responded. I agree with some of things that Mc Arthur has said until this,

Quote:

I suppose that brings us to the crux of the matter. Do I believe that people in the Muslim world are actually seeing Jesus Christ? No, I do not. Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:8 that he was “the last of all” to see the risen Christ. So, I believe that precludes anyone outside of those listed in 1 Corinthians 15 of being able to claim legitimate visions of the resurrected Savior. (The apostle John, of course, was one of those included in 1 Corinthians 15. Accordingly, I don’t believe the book of Revelation sets a precedent for believers to expect genuine visions of Jesus to occur throughout church history.)



Absolutely wrong interpretation of scripture. It is very clear that when a person has a theology as idol in his heart everything will be a deception. Paul did not say that Jesus will not appear to anyone else after he appeared to Paul. The list that Paul talks about did not include Stephen the first martyr. So will Mc Arthur say that Stephen never saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God before his death (Acts 7:55)? Stephen saw it before Paul but his name is not included in Paul's list either. So Paul did not include only those who saw Jesus or those who will ever see Jesus. He only included those instances that he witnessed. And until that time he was the last to see Jesus.

Sadhu Sundar Singh saw Jesus when he was 15 years old some 150 years back. He accepted Jesus from being a Sikh and became a missionary. His work and zeal for Jesus is the testimony for his conversion. Without seeing Jesus there is no way a 15 year old will have such a radical conversion and will be willing to come out of a family that poisoned him for leaving his faith.




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Sreeram

 2014/6/27 1:46Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

I really like John MacArthur 90% of the time regarding his teaching.

But I agree with Sree here-- I would go so far as to say that he is **deliberately** misinterpreting scripture in order to make it fit his paradigm. He will have to answer for this.

In that 1 Cor. 15 passage he is clearly making a list of persons who had seen Jesus up to that point with him being the last. It in no way can be interpreted to mean that Paul was saying that there would never be another person to see Jesus.

John MacArthur is too smart of a guy to simply be mistaken about this. His heart is hard in this area and I believe we need to pray for him.


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Todd

 2014/6/27 6:26Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

There have been many false teachers from the word of faith movement claiming they have seen our Lord in dreams or visions and claiming to work miracles. This is why I can sympathize with MacArthur’s skepticism.

A question I would pose here is, why do some of us feel so strongly about confronting this non-essential or non-salvific doctrinal difference we have with MacArthur. There are other doctrinal differences we have with him on non-essentials. For example, he firmly believes in a pre-tribulational rapture and I know many here strongly disagree with that view yet I don’t see anyone calling him out on that. We know that pre-trib vs post-trib is a non-essential issue and it seems some of us don’t feel as strongly about that difference with him as we do regarding this issue. It seems some of us treat this issue of the gifts of the Spirit as if it was such a serious disagreement to the point that we may not fellowship with someone on account of it.

Another question I want to pose is, if I said I have the same cessationist view as MacArthur, would that cause anyone here to brake fellowship with me? I would hope the answer would be no.


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Oracio

 2014/6/27 11:13Profile
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 Re:

I don't know john so I can't really break fellowship with him nor would I. I listen to him when I have opportunity. I like and benefit from his teaching.

In his pre-trib view he is not being dishonest.

I believe his treatment of the 1 Cor 15 passage IS dishonest which is why I am calling him out on it. It has nothing to do with his cessation views. It is because I think he is purposefully misinterpreting that scripture to fit his paradigm.

The most he should be able to say is "I don't know whether persons are having visions of Jesus." Because it seems they certainly are.


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Todd

 2014/6/27 12:21Profile









 Re:

Brethren the reason I am raising this issue is because of Moslems coming to Christ. Many by dreams and visions. Not to call MacArthur out on his cessationism.

TOM Doyle has worked in the Middle East authenticating the reports of Moslems coming to Christ. They have come to Christ by dreams and visions. His observation is that Moslems who come to Christ in a dream or vision become staunch folloowers of Jesus. They do not turn away from Jesus. They are willing to follow Jesus even to martyrdom.

Yet J. MacArthur dismisses such reports as not credible. Why I ask? Has he ever met a converted Moslem who came to Christ through a dream or vision?

It is easy to sit in a nice office and pontificate theological and abstractions in a nice cushion chair. But outside of their bubble, does anyone from Grace to You truly know what is going on in the Middle East.

My thoughts,

Blaine

 2014/6/27 14:23
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

From a careful reading of the interview it is very clear that MacArthur is not questioning the authenticity of the conversion of these ex-Moslem believers. He does not question the fact that they have experienced certain "impressions" which they believe are visions of Christ, "impressions" which have led them to the true gospel. He is only questioning the interpretation of those "impressions" because he believes Scripture is against new visions or revelations of Christ. He is saying in essence, "I believe these ex-Moslems may be truly converted unto the Lord but I do not believe they really saw Christ in a vision."

Are we really going to call into question the integrity of MacArthur and his ministry based on that petty difference? It really does come down to having such a strong disagreement with and disdain for cessationism because part of that view is the belief that new visions of Christ are not for today.

Whitefield and Spurgeon would have also taken a strong stance against the excesses of Charismania today, they too were cessationists. Would we call them out and disfellowship from them today based on that difference? Do we care that much about the miraculous? Is there a chance we may over-emphasize these things? Is not the true gospel and the conversion of sinners to Christ more important than these minor differences about spiritual gifts?

Just because the Lord sometimes financially blesses a man's public ministry in the west doesn't mean they are just lukewarm cozy ministers. There is nothing wrong or sinful with having a ministry like MacArthur's in the US. Not every minister of the gospel is called overseas. If we feel it is lukewarm to have such a ministry in the US why are we not overseas ourselves?


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Oracio

 2014/6/27 15:30Profile
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 Re:

Oracio--

Will you not agree that he is playing fast and loose with that 1 Cor 15 passage? He is doing the same thing he accuses charismaniacs of doing namely twisting scripture to fit their paradigm.

If anyone should know better he should.


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Todd

 2014/6/27 15:56Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
It is easy to sit in a nice office and pontificate theological and abstractions in a nice cushion chair. But outside of their bubble, does anyone from Grace to You truly know what is going on in the Middle East.

My thoughts,

Blaine


This is the link to the list of missionaries sent out by Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, CA:

http://www.gracechurch.org/ministries/outreach/international/

We must be careful not to quickly call into question MacArthur's concern for spreading the gospel overseas.


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Oracio

 2014/6/27 16:12Profile









 Re:

Oracio I spoke to a Jihadist who was gloriously converted having seen a vision if Jesus. I doubt very seriously if you would convince this man he had a misguided impression. For that matter the thousands of Moslems who have come to Christ through a dream or vision are very adamant that they have seen Isa or Jesus. They are just as adamant as Saul was having seen Jesus on the road to Damascus.

What you label as pettiness is in effect calling into question the testimony of thousands of MBB`s and dismissing a redemptive move of God among the Islamic nations.

MacArthur believes that one should be converted under a Calvinistic verse by verse exposition of scripture. This will not work in Islamic nations. Thus the need for a move of the Holy Spirit among the Moslems by dreams and visions.

And why not miracles? Has God stopped working in miracles because we have the canon of scripture? Is everything relegated to rationalistic, Calvinistic, Van Tillian propositions to argue one into the Kingdom?

Because something that God does will not fit into the 5 Canons of Dort are we going to blow it off as misguided impressions?

I have said John MacArthur is a respected Bible teacher. And many including myself have benefited from His ministry. But he is still only a man. And his theology does not allow him to see the move of the Spirit among Moslems.

My thoughts.

Blaine



 2014/6/27 16:34





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