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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Whoa there Les there is nothing wrong with asking questions. John is conversing with persons who are asking these questions. My kids ask me these questions. I ask these questions. "Go listen to Paris Reidhead" while a good idea is not an answer.


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Todd

 2014/6/30 10:09Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

DEADn, I don't mind your questions, by the way. We need to be ready to answer what we are able to answer. Also, not to presume things. I am not quoting or setting out lots of passages here for the sake of brevity. If I state incorrectly, there are plenty of folks here able and willing to redirect lovingly.

With that, your question about distinction between virgin and non virgin...

I thought the reason was implicit in my prior post. Non virgin women are either married in that setting or corrupt through prostitution or other fornication. To take them into Israel would have been the invitation of the same corrupting influence as men of Canaan. It would also be an inexplicable variation from the Hebrew commandment from God to impose death on adulteresses. The maturity of Israel is crucial here. Their development as the covenant people of God, God's formative revelation of Himself to them is still quite early. He is sovereign and exercises mercy upon whom He will. In that context, it is easy to see that God acts justly.


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Tim

 2014/6/30 12:00Profile
DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

Quote:

DEADn, I don't mind your questions, by the way. We need to be ready to answer what we are able to answer. Also, not to presume things. I am not quoting or setting out lots of passages here for the sake of brevity. If I state incorrectly, there are plenty of folks here able and willing to redirect lovingly.

With that, your question about distinction between virgin and non virgin...

I thought the reason was implicit in my prior post. Non virgin women are either married in that setting or corrupt through prostitution or other fornication. To take them into Israel would have been the invitation of the same corrupting influence as men of Canaan. It would also be an inexplicable variation from the Hebrew commandment from God to impose death on adulteresses. The maturity of Israel is crucial here. Their development as the covenant people of God, God's formative revelation of Himself to them is still quite early. He is sovereign and exercises mercy upon whom He will. In that context, it is easy to see that God acts justly.



How are virgins not corrupt? It would seem to me that because virgins are virgins they are not corrupt yet what about being taught the ways of pagans? Often times I see the sin of women revolve around their sexuality, or at least that is what I tend to perceive. Does it really come down to virgin and non virgin with women back then?

I am kind of thinking that I need to read a book on this subject dealing with history on this because looking at this through the modern mindset it sounds ridiculous but it is unfair to judge those things from the modern mindset. Therefore I know my judgement is skewed on this and thus the reason I ask.


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John

 2014/6/30 12:57Profile
DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

Quote:

DEADn

If you had listened to even a handful of the sermons available to you on this website, you would not be asking such questions! It sounds as though you are more of a secularist or humanist by many of the questions you ask. The basic sin nature of man is one that is foundational to the faith. Have you listened to 'Ten Shekels and a Shirt' by Paris Reidhead?
Have you listened to Art Katz over and over denounce and call to account the humanistic errors of our ways as believers. Have you listened to Leonard Ravenhill call our lazy believism into account or David Wilkerson wrestle with God over his lifetime? Listen to these sermons. Dig into the Word yourself. Wrestle with God, not with mockers and unbelievers!
We cannot fight humanist and secular and false religions and philosophies with fuzzy humanistic ways of thinking (worldly thinking, as set up by Satan in this earth) God's ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts...until we are born again, agreeing with His Word, though we often fight it with every inch of our flesh because it seems "unfair" and "unloving".

God has never been unfair or unloving. God is just and He is loving. We, however, are born with a corrupt nature.

It is so clear that many, including those who call themselves Christians are justifying their own desires, wants, needs and opinions without consulting the Lord, His Book and dying to the fleshly lies. And it is a battle on a daily basis. The very mind of God is available to us when we believe in His Son, receive His Holy Spirit and daily walk, agreeing with His Word, His Ways, His Life within us. Pick up your cross and follow Him, he said. Die to all these arguments and needing to understand God. We are the clay. He is the Potter. We do not have to explain our God's ways and apologise for Him. He knows what He is about.

Don't mean to embarrass you, but there are sermons on this website of godly men and women who have been tested and tried. Their testimonies and messages have been preserved for many of us who have not had good teachers, preachers or Discipler's. Take advantage of hearing them before it is too late and the site is taken down. No one knows how long you will have the opportunity to glean from these saints.

L.Manto



Les
You haven't embarrassed me in this but one thing you have done is become a sort of Fundamentalist finger pointer thinking that all my answers would be found in sermons. That is like telling me all my answers will be found in the OT. If that were the case why would anyone ask questions? No, It is my opinion that we need to understand some history in order to understand what was going on there and why thing were the certain way.

Art Katz doesn't do anything for me personally. I have listen to a few sermons. Paris is ok but they didn't enlightenment on this issue I have raised.

Point me in the direction of sermons that will explain why certain things happened in the OT rather than they just happened. This is what I am looking for in the end. The why's because too often we see the past through a modern mindset and often judgement past societies on the modern mindset. I don't want to do that yet in order not to do that I have to understand why these things were so. Does that make sense?

God has never been unfair or unloving BUT often to the human mindset it isn't always seen that way and understanding why is a concern. I strive to have a practical approach to explanation. If I can't explain it then it means I am ignorant on the subject, just as I am on this subject.

John


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John

 2014/6/30 13:05Profile
yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Quote:
How are virgins not corrupt? It would seem to me that because virgins are virgins they are not corrupt yet what about being taught the ways of pagans? Often times I see the sin of women revolve around their sexuality, or at least that is what I tend to perceive. Does it really come down to virgin and non virgin with women back then?


Here's a thought - in those days, the husband was the head of the family (a role which was undisputed in those days) and it was paternal lineage which determined the ethnicity of an individual. So children from such a marriage would be Jewish, and the Gentile wife might have been considered to be "grafted" into the Jewish race through the union of marriage (think Ruth for example).

That could be one reason why the younger females were spared but not the younger males (the Midianites were to be exterminated), and also the distinction made between virgins and non-virgins (non-virgins having already been united with another partner).

 2014/6/30 13:17Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey John try that Paul Copan book I mentioned. It is supposed to go into the historical background.

But I will tell you (and you may already know this) that the persons you are conversing with will not be persuaded even if you give an explanation ---they will just move on to something else. They are opposed to God and until that changes by a radical move of the HS their minds and hearts are darkened.

Perhaps that is what Les was getting at. Those persons need to repent and the only way that will happen is by hearing the gospel. Once they hear the gospel they may "kick against the goads" like Paul but hopefully conviction will set in.


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Todd

 2014/6/30 14:26Profile
DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

TMK
Yeah, I understand that but I figure if I can get to the worst cases of an argument and answer it and watch them squirm I can then call them out to expose their heart decision for what they are. I tend to be practical in my approach with things. The the reason for my OP. I will look at that book.


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John

 2014/6/30 14:38Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464
Mississippi

 Re: Tough issues in the bible and today's church

John,

You ask some tough questions and I do not doubt that people are asking them. Whether they are honest or not, one cannot tell always.

There is one thing I do sense in these ignorant questions is that people appear to want to disqualify the reliability of the WORD as it convicts their own heart of their own sin. If God's WORD can be discredited, be proven to be unreliable, then they will not have to give heed to the conviction in their own heart of their own sinfulness - at least so they think.

Ravi Zacharias addresses this issue a lot in his talks. He asks: “Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart, we are really not battling intellectual ideas as much we fighting for the right for our own sexual proclivities and our passionate indulgences?”

I think he is right on.

So, how does one deal with these questions when thrown at you? I suspect there is no one answer that fits all, but would say one needs to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit to speak to your own heart about how to answer. A person come up with a very good one, but it may not be pertinent to the individual at the moment which is why one needs to listen to the Holy Spirit. Now for your own benefit, I would say, study the WORD in its context and you may be surprised what you learn - there is no end to the inspiration the WORD gives to a careful serious scholar.

My understanding....

God bless.


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Sandra Miller

 2014/7/1 8:41Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Jesus was a master at re-directing questions in unexpected directions. I think we need to be better at this.


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Todd

 2014/7/1 9:54Profile





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