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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

IMO Believer Baptism and The Lords Supper are non negotiables.

In everything else there is freedom as each is led by the Spirit.


_________________
Todd

 2014/6/26 13:44Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

havok20x writes

Quote:
Brothers,

How then do you go about determining which ones should not be followed?


Very good and important question brother. I believe this article does a good job at giving an answer to that question:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-apply-today.html


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Oracio

 2014/6/26 13:44Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

I typed too quick. In the sense of ordinances that is what I meant. Of course I believe we are to do what Jesus commanded. Some of Paul's instructions are a bit more problematic because of the nature of his writings but for the most part we should abide by his instructions.


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Todd

 2014/6/26 13:47Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Okay,

So there is a man from Swaziland, who has no internet. Nothing but the Holy Spirit and a Bible and a body of believers who also have nothing but the Holy Spirit and the Bible.

Do they have everything they need for life and godliness or not? Or do we have to bring in all sorts of cultural this and that and jump outside the Scriptures to determine what is contained within the Scriptures? Do you see my point?



I agree with the article you posted, oracio, but that is not what is being advocated here by many of us (Christians in USA, etc--just to clarify).

I truly believe that "cultural context" is used to skate over just about anything that would set us apart from everyone else.


Do I like learning about the culture? Yes, it reinforces to what the Scripture plainly says. However, if it radically reinterprets what the Scriptures plainly say, then we need to say, "okay, maybe I need to search the scriptures more. Maybe I don't know enough of them or don't remember enough of them to know what this truly means. Shoot, I'll go ask a godly man or woman who's been walking with the Lord for 40 years and knows the Scriptures." But don't say, "oh! The culture was different. This verse doesn't apply to me!" I'm sorry. That isn't true for even 1 verse of the Bible. It wasn't written for them only. It was written for us!

 2014/6/26 13:55Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

havok20x writes

Quote:
Okay,

So there is a man from Swaziland, who has no internet. Nothing but the Holy Spirit and a Bible and a body of believers who also have nothing but the Holy Spirit and the Bible.

Do they have everything they need for life and godliness or not? Or do we have to bring in all sorts of cultural this and that and jump outside the Scriptures to determine what is contained within the Scriptures? Do you see my point?

In response I would ask, would that man from Swaziland be liable to possibly misinterpret and misapply some scriptures? Of course the answer is yes because we are still fallible creatures even though the Holy Spirit can and does lead us into all truth.

Lets consider this hypothetical person in regard to the issues of foot washing and a holy kiss. If that person reads those scriptures he may interpret them as timeless commands to obey today and may try to apply them as such, as some have indeed misinterpreted and misapplied them throughout church history. And that person may become guilty of placing legalistic and unnecessary burdens on others.


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Oracio

 2014/6/26 14:23Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Please note: I am not arguing. So don't read angry tones into what I am saying. Thanks!

***********************************

The fallibility of man is not the core issue here. Yes, people can make mistakes. That's no reason to accept extrabiblical stuff in order to reinterpret scripture.

Has God failed to fulfill His promise to them because they don't have the internet or a library?

Quote:
Lets consider this hypothetical person in regard to the issues of foot washing and a holy kiss. If that person reads those scriptures he may interpret them as timeless commands to obey today and may try to apply them as such, as some have indeed misinterpreted and misapplied them throughout church history. And that person may become guilty of placing legalistic and unnecessary burdens on others.



Is everything legalism? I feel like hardly anyone actually knows what that means. It comes from the books of Galatians and Colossians. It is a term that refers to those who proclaim that we must keep old testament law in order to be saved. If someone were here at SI saying that you have to be circumsized in order to go to heaven or to earn favor with God, they are a legalist. If salvation and favor with God is not being juxtaposed with OT law, it is not legalism. It might be something else, but it isn't legalism. We aren't talking about salvation here. We are talking about customs and the interpretation of scripture in regard to them.

If I try to imitate those men who came before me who walked with the Lord, as the Scriptures tell me to, am I a legalist? If a church decided to greet one another with a holy kiss or wash one another's feet in rememberance and for a reminder that we are to love and serve one another, are they legalists? No.

You know what? I have freedom NOT to wash another brother's feet or to NOT greet them with a Holy Kiss, but if I do it and I am not exalting myself over others, why am I judged?

Who in their right mind is going to say, "You know what, brother, it is such a burden for me to greet you with a Holy Kiss. I absolutely hate it."

Who is going to say, "You know what, brother, it is such a burden for me to wash your feet."

If I say that if you don't kiss people and don't wash their feet you're going to hell, then yes, I am terribly mistaken.

 2014/6/26 14:55Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

havok20x writes:

Quote:
Please note: I am not arguing. So don't read angry tones into what I am saying. Thanks!



Amen brother. I also do not post to argue with an angry attitude at all. I think this has been a good civilized discussion thread so far. May we continue to keep that kind of respectful attitude.

Quote:
Is everything legalism? I feel like hardly anyone actually knows what that means. It comes from the books of Galatians and Colossians. It is a term that refers to those who proclaim that we must keep old testament law in order to be saved. If someone were here at SI saying that you have to be circumsized in order to go to heaven or to earn favor with God, they are a legalist. If salvation and favor with God is not being juxtaposed with OT law, it is not legalism. It might be something else, but it isn't legalism. We aren't talking about salvation here. We are talking about customs and the interpretation of scripture in regard to them.


Brother, I honestly can't think of a better term to describe placing unbiblical burdens on one's self and others, even if it's not dealing with salvation. If you can think of one please let me know.

Quote:
If I try to imitate those men who came before me who walked with the Lord, as the Scriptures tell me to, am I a legalist? If a church decided to greet one another with a holy kiss or wash one another's feet in rememberance and for a reminder that we are to love and serve one another, are they legalists? No.

You know what? I have freedom NOT to wash another brother's feet or to NOT greet them with a Holy Kiss, but if I do it and I am not exalting myself over others, why am I judged?

Who in their right mind is going to say, "You know what, brother, it is such a burden for me to greet you with a Holy Kiss. I absolutely hate it."

Who is going to say, "You know what, brother, it is such a burden for me to wash your feet."

If I say that if you don't kiss people and don't wash their feet you're going to hell, then yes, I am terribly mistaken.


It becomes unbiblical(since you don't like the term "legalism" applied here) when we say that we MUST do those things in order to please or obey God, even if it's not dealing with salvation. And that is what has been done throughout church history with these kinds of things. Some have made these things mandatory in their gatherings or services. Some have implied that those who do not do these things are disobeying God. We must be careful not to call into question the obedience of others based on these kinds of cultural issues.


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Oracio

 2014/6/26 15:44Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Quote:
when we say that we MUST do those things in order to please or obey God



You're right. The Father's pleasure in me is found in His Son. It's not about performance.

Let me quote something our sister followthelamb posted that I think is incredibly profound.

Quote:
...it has very little to do with men at all but rather the invisible reality which will one day overtake the vain things of this world and bring us all to stand before His throne.



Anything we do--even if it is absolutely biblical--if it is done with the "I'm gonna be the best christian ever" mentality, is total failure from the start. What should motivate us is the glory of God--that's in everything.

God's mercy, grace, love, etc toward me is found in Christ not performance.

Hence galatians 6:14--" But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

 2014/6/26 16:37Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

By havok20x

Let me quote something our sister MaryJane posted that I think is incredibly profound.

Quote:
...it has very little to do with men at all but rather the invisible reality which will one day overtake the vain things of this world and bring us all to stand before His throne.




__________________

Greetings havoke20x

I just wanted to say I did not write that, followthelamb wrote that. I do agree with you, it is very profound. :)


God bless
maryjane

 2014/6/26 16:52Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

I will make the necessary corrections. Thanks!

 2014/6/26 17:32Profile





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