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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

brother Frank, thanks for sharing that testimony, I was very encouraged by it.

murrcolr writes:

Quote:
I am interested in your testimony, and I have a couple of questions.

Oracio Quote: It was not genuine saving repentance.

What would define as genuine saving repentance?

Oracio Quote: I struggled with accepting that I had had a false conversion.

Who told you your conversion was false in the first instance?



In answer to your first question, "What would you define as genuine saving repentance?",

in 2 Cor.7:10 it says, “For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.”

So there are two kinds of sorrows in response to sin, one leading to salvation and one leading to death. As I searched the Scriptures and allowed the Lord to search my heart it became clear to me that I had had a woldly sorrow leading to death during that time. I was in a serious hardship and wanted out, and I felt God was punishing me for my wicked ways. I was like a criminal who had been caught red-handed and cried in front of the judge begging to be pardoned. Many criminals are like that. They cry and beg the judge to have mercy on them but they are not really sorry for their crimes, they are only sorry that they got caught. And they will pretend to be sorry in order to receive a lenient sentence. They will try to bribe the judge in any way they possibly can.

On the other hand a godly sorrow is an acknowledgment that one has committed high treason against the One who has only shown kindness toward them. It’s like saying, “how could I have turned my back and acted so wickedly against such a loving and merciful God?” A clear example of worldy vs godly sorrow is in the accounts of Judas and Peter. One led to despair and suicide and the other led to the Lord for restoration.

In answer to your second question, "Who told you your conversion was false in the first instance?",

the simplest answer is that God told Me as I searched the Scriptures and He revealed my deceived heart. It was undeniable once I was open and humbled myself to that possibility as opposed to refusing to consider it possible.

Like I said, my motive in crying out to God was the wrong motive of trying to mainly escape God’s temporal punishment and trying to bribe Him to be lenient toward me. Also, even though I started attending church services and stopped some of my heinous sins I still continued in other serious sins like fornication and had no serious conviction or desire to turn from those sins at all during that whole time. I also had no desire to learn about God on my own even though I could have gotten a Bible easily if I didn’t yet have one collecting dust somewhere (I don’t remember if I had one collecting dust).

The main reason I started attending church and supposedly “serving God” was because I felt obligated to return God the favor of helping me in my time of need. I really thought I was doing God a favor and earning His favor. How foolish that was, to think I could do God a favor by attending church services and giving up certain vices!

I was like a reformed criminal(and I don’t mean Calvinist) who still was a criminal at heart. My heart had not really changed from loving sin to loving God because sin and the world were still way too attractive to me and God was too boring for me. So like it says in 1Pet.2:22 , I was like that dog that goes back to his own vomit and the pig that goes back to the mud. No, I was clearly deceived. I did not come to savingly know God during that time. I was still lost and hell-bound. I was a religious hypocrite who had a false conversion.

But oh, when I got born again at the age of 22, let me tell you, it was like night and day difference, the complete opposite of my false conversion experience. My Jesus became a gazillion times more precious to me than anything this world could offer. I could sing that hymn from the very depths of my being, “Oh, how I love Jesus, because He first loved me.” I began to have a hunger for the Word of God like never before. I began to learn more than ever what sin is and sincerely wanted no part of it. I hated my sin because I knew it nailed my Lord to that cross. I was still very much tempted and fell into sin but now there was true repentance and growing in holiness by God’s grace.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/6/21 2:45Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

yea when you put it like that oraco it i would agree with ya sounds false ,,,,,,

you know i think when the gosple is presentd in a way that makes man the one who can repent and believe and clean his act up on more or less on his own then it will led to false conversions a plenty ,,,,,,,i think jesus and paul presented the gosple as the power of god to iniate repentence and faith and obedence

we cant truly please god in the flesh and do what he wants ,,we need jesus for 100 percent of salvation for the drawing ,for the igniting and for power to obey

 2014/6/21 3:35Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

im not trying to be nit picky,,,, 2 cor 7. 10 is a leter paul wrote to believers who were born again and back sliden in an area of life ,,,so the godly sorrow in this context was being produced in an already regenerat person and it leds to repenetence in that scence ,,,that is the christian walk ,,,,,a paternt of godliy sorrow that is leding us to the end of our faith ,the salvation of souls

rather then useing that as a proof text for initlal salvation ,,, i like to keep it in its contexual flow

 2014/6/21 3:56Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Oracio - thanks for the detail it was an interesting read.

I think God was drawing you to him all along, you may responded with a wrong motives, but he was still at work and he kept on drawing you to him, were you eventually get to a point were you start searching for the truth, which you could say was a changed mindset from before. (repentance in a basic form), which led you into the truth, which at that point you could believe on Jesus unto salvation.

Looking back on my life, I can see points that God was drawing me but at the time I couldn't see it. I can remember a time in my bed which I had a gospel tract and said the prayer of salvation, I didn't get saved at that time but looking back he was drawing me in..

But for me it all came down to the point were I sought to find the truth, but even then it still God drawing me to him.

God is good.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2014/6/21 10:10Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Amen murrcolr.

brothagary, I was not specifically addressing that post about feelings to you per se. And I know that feelings play a valid role in our relationship with God. I am not invalidating your testimony as I do not know what the condition of your heart was at that time. What I was saying before is that if you were truly saved you repented and may not realize you did. I'm saying that the Bible is crystal clear that unless we repent we are lost and will perish in our sins. Now we can argue that point and may have to respectfully agree to disagree on it. But I'd say at that point the argument would be against the clear teaching of God's Word. I cannot lower the standard of the gospel and salvation. I cannot not stop teaching and preaching repentance as being necessary for salvation because God's Word is too clear on it.

Matthew Henry said, "Some people do not like to hear much of repentance; but I think it is so necessary that if I should die in the pulpit, I would desire to die preaching repentance, and if out of the pulpit I would desire to die practicing it."

Again, we can respectfully agree to disagree my brother. I do not for one moment question your current relationship with the Lord. May He continue to bless you and strengthen you in your walk.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/6/21 11:00Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

brother i dont at all respect any so called christian that teaches we dont need to repent during a christian walk,, we differ on that by the sounds of it ,,and when true repentence accours ,weather it be a work of the flesh or a work of the spiritial man ,,,i not asked you to lower the stanadard of the gosple,,,,,,honestly i think we lower the standard of the gosple when we present it ina way that make man able in the flesh to change his mind about sin and GOD and act on that and turn from it REPENTENCE

I think jesus made it clear in the gosple of john the mystery of god turning hearts and through out the old and new testament and the letters of paul that there is no goodness and pleaesing god in the flesh nor can the flesh recieve the message of the gosple ,,,,,


im not saying this about you just generaly when i see the gosple presened it seems to give the idea to men that they have the power obeay and please god in them selfs ,,,,,and if the spirit is not moving to convert when that type of message is being preached ,,men will go home thinking he believes in god and now he jeust needs to clean his act up like a good jehvova witness does so the speak ,,,lead to a false conversion ,,,best we tell men they cant realy come to jesus unlessless god draws them the and grants repentence and faith and gives them a new heart to want to come to god and obey him ,,,and explain to them as jesus did to nicodeams,,,unless we are in a revivle atmosphear maby then we can shorten the gosple a littel knowing god is already doing the work

blessings to ya

 2014/6/21 18:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Amen sister. It was two years after I was saved that I was delivered from smoking. I tried to quit and failed a couple of times after being saved. One night in the kitchen the Lord asked me to think about the next day without smoking. I thought about every part of the day and how smoking was such an integral part of every part of the day. The Lord was showing me just how much in bondage I was in. I had, at that point in my life been smoking two packs a day for a number of years. He spoke into my heart and told me that if I did not smoke again that night, that I would never smoke again. That was 21 years ago. He is God that delivers...........bro Frank



Frank, Amen! I was convicted of smoking after a few months of coming to the Lord but it took me 10 years to get free. I did try a few times but unfortunately I was a backslider for a lot of that time though I did not turn away from the Lord, I quit Bible reading as I just found the Christian life too hard. I did not know for a long time afterwards that I was born on the autistic spectrum and am Aspergers (discovered not too long ago) and that is the reason why I had so many struggles; not being able to focus in prayer, being too shy to pray aloud with others, high levels of anxiety and many other problems, some of them I have overcome by diet in giving up gluten and eating really healthy.

Finding out has given me the missing piece of the jigsaw and I have been able to stop beating myself up over my weaknesses. But thank God for His grace in allowing us to overcome the ones which make us sin. I have been restored btw to what I was walking in previously.

 2014/6/22 13:02









 Re:

Quote:
Regarding the issue of smoking, I remember Chuck Smith saying that if you are saved smoking cigarettes will not damn you to hell, it will only bring you to heaven quicker. Some of you may be familiar with the account of Spurgeon and Moody meeting one time in Spurgeon’s office. The story goes that as Spurgeon pulled out one of his cigars and lit it Moody pointed at the cigar and said, “That offends me.” Then Spurgeon looks at Moody and points at his big belly and says, “That offends me.”



Oracio, smoking is a deliberate sin because it damages our lungs along with other things, whatever Smith said, but there can be problems with the thyroid that make it hard or near impossible to lose weight very quickly so you cannot compare the two unless the man is a gluten that is and Spurgeon I believe was portly himself. I cannot take a preacher seriously if he is obese and not on a diet.

 2014/6/22 13:06
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

The Law of Surrender By A.W. Tozer

The Bible says that we are to present our bodies "as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God." Of course, if you give your body, you give everything it contains. That means giving yourself wholly to God, and the idea of giving yourself wholly to God contains three laws. The first law is the law of surrender. If you do not surrender, it will be totally impossible for the Lord to do anything for you. Surgeons have to have the surrender of their patients. If I went to a surgeon and insisted that I was going to tell him how to do the job and not only that but stay awake and resist him, the surgeon could not work. It would be impossible. Surgeons must put their patients to sleep so they cannot resist, so they are in a state of surrender. That is the law of surrender. A more beautiful and biblical description is the story of the potter and the clay, which illustrates the law of surrender further. The potter has soft, yielding clay, but if the clay does not surrender, the potter cannot do a thing with it. If there are burnt places, hard places or unsurrendered places in the clay, though the potter be a genius in making vessels, the artist still could not make anything useful and beautiful out of an unyielding blob of clay. It is possible for an object to be useful but not beautiful, like a garbage can. It is also entirely possible to be beautiful and not useful, like the lily. The lily has no utilitarian place in the world. It is possible to have a vessel that is useful without being beautiful. The old cream crocks in our spring house on the farm were useful all right. You could pour the milk in them, wait for the cream to rise and skim it off. They were not beautiful, but they were quite useful. Everybody has in their home beautiful little knickknacks. They are utterly useless, simply to be enjoyed for their beauty. But God wants His vessels to be both useful and beautiful. If God is going to make those kinds of vessels out of us, however, we are going to have to yield to the law of surrender. Give yourself to God as a living sacrifice and let Him have you--all of you.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2014/6/22 18:32Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Oracio, smoking is a deliberate sin because it damages our lungs along with other things, whatever Smith said, but there can be problems with the thyroid that make it hard or near impossible to lose weight very quickly so you cannot compare the two unless the man is a gluten that is and Spurgeon I believe was portly himself. I cannot take a preacher seriously if he is obese and not on a diet.


Hi Brenda. I meant to lighten things up a bit with those cheesy comments about smoking. Also, I was agreeing with the view that smoking is not a damnable sin worth excommunicating someone for or questioning their salvation for. Same goes for gluttony.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/6/22 18:40Profile





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