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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Did the Father, turn his face away from Christ, His own son?

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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

im just wondering tmk does the bible say he emptied his self of his divine attributes or does it say something else ,, and your are adding the words divine attributes

 2014/6/20 4:59Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

What the kenosis means had nothing to do with betel or any place else. Not sure where that came from. It is what it is.

Do you think Jesus was praying when he was in the manger. Jesus became a human being.

Like I said even the gotquestions.com agrees with this and that site is very conservative.

I think your reformed theology may be for some reason afraid to admit that Jesus really emptied himself. It's not a bad thing. He was still God. But it was part of God's plan.


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Todd

 2014/6/20 6:45Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

who was that to ,,,i just want the scripture that says what you said mmmi dont recall paul saying what you said about jesus seperating him self from devine atributes ,,where does it say that

but i know he claimed to be the great iam full stop ,,no add msg ,,or he wasnt a cup of skim milk with the cream taken out ,,he was the full cream milk the best you can get

what were those verses again where it say he gave up his god atributes


brother who cares what got your answers dot com says ,,we have the bible dot com what does it say

 2014/6/20 7:03Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

it think whast the propblem is that god has devine atrabutes and a god that doesnt have thoses atrabutes is not god ,,so if jesus was the great iam ,as he said and he was a man then he must have the atrabutes to both god and man ,,,if a chicken doesnt have the atrabutes of chicken then its not kfc ,,maby its macdonadls you would have to cheak the atrabutes




we have a bird in australia called a peacok ,,,but it doesnt look so glorious becasue its glory is hiden but when it reliesest its glory wow https://www.google.com.au/search?q=photos+of+a+peacock&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=aBekU6nqFofHkAWhi4DgBg&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQsAQ&biw=1088&bih=515#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=I0HGKbvEq1f0-M%253A%3B9yykDIdD-u0vjM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252F6%252F62%252FPeacock_Wooing_Peahen.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcommons.wikimedia.org%252Fwiki%252FFile%253APeacock_Wooing_Peahen.jpg%3B1200%3B896

 2014/6/20 7:15Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

Gary-

Phil. 2:5-8

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


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Todd

 2014/6/20 9:10Profile
dfella
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Joined: 2010/7/9
Posts: 295
Canton, Michigan

 Re:

Brothagary,

I have a question regarding Jesus going to hell. What is your understanding as to which hell the bible is referring to in the scriptures?

Was it the place of eternal torment (geeena used 12 times in the NT) or was it the place of departed spirits (hades used 11 times in the NT)?

Both of these places are referred to as hell in the New Testament.

This is a very important question because there are some that teach Jesus went to eternal torment (geeena)and not simply the place of departed spirits which is defined by the Greek word hades which the scriptures clearly teach was Abrahams Bosom, Paradise.

BD




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David Fella

 2014/6/20 9:19Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

It is important for me to note that I believe this emptying was voluntary on the part of Jesus in that he *chose* not to exercise them.

I guess you could say that he veiled these attributes while he was in human form. He didn't lose them but did not exercise them.

Jesus did not know how many planets there were in the solar system when he was lying in the manger. All he did as a baby was poop cry and eat like all human babies. I know this may seem strange for some to consider but it is true.

Gary the Bible does not explicitly state that Jesus never made a mistake in fact. The issue is whether he might have. When he learned the Hebrew alphabet did he never write a letter slightly the wrong way? When he learned carpentry did he never once measure wrong? We can't confuse sinless perfection with mistakes or errors. I am not talking about moral errors because I have repeatedly affirmed that Jesus was sinless.


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Todd

 2014/6/20 9:27Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Quote:
I guess you could say that he veiled these attributes while he was in human form. He didn't lose them but did not exercise them.



This is entirely differnt than the word "divested". Divested means to shed off. Like clothes or armor or something like that. It is the language that many use to promulgate false teachings--bethel is a good example, which is why I used it. They teach that Jesus was not God while on this earth. That is called kenoticism. There are also those who teach that Jesus was only partly God while on earth, and that is equally wrong.

I agree that Jesus veiled yet retained all His attributes. Such as his glory and holiness. His ministry would have been quite a bit differnt had He been displaying those all the time--everyone falling down trembling all the time. That is part of the great mystery of the Hypostatic Union--Jesus was and is now fully God and fully man. Jesus is submissive to the Father, and has been so for all eternity--although they are equally God (Doctrine of Eternal Generation). The Trinity is also a marvelous mystery! The only thing that was restraining Jesus from knowing certain things was His own will.

Do I believe that Jesus had to develop a relationship with the Father? No. But that is only because His coming in the flesh was a part of His will. He knew who He was. He did not have to discover it or figure it out. He knew. Even 12-year-old Jesus knew He had to be about His Father's business.

***************************

In response to my "reformed theology". I am not a calvinist. I am a Christian.

My theology changes and grows daily as I read the Scriptures and seek the Lord. I haven't figured all this out and I don't know almost anything. What I have, I cannot boast as if I discovered it myself, because I have not received it from myself, but the Lord.

Do the things that I believe line up with a lot of reformed teachings. Yes, in some instances. Was I raised that way. Not at all. I was raised (once I became a Christian) more arminian than anything else. Do I sit under the banner of calvinism and proudly display it? "God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world was crucified to me and I to the world."

*****************************

To wrap it up. I believe Jesus was forsaken by the Father, as a part of the will of God. I believe that the Scriptures clearly show that Jesus suffered under the wrath of God, whether you read a supposed cultural context into them or not. I believe Jesus did reference Psalm 22, not to remind them about the Psalm, but because the Psalm was being fulfilled, just as He did many other times with other Scriptures. I do not believe Jesus made mistakes.

I enjoyed this discussion.

 2014/6/20 11:25Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

I didn't mean to sound as if I was disparaging reformed theology. Some if my favorite Bible teachers are reformed. I just disagree on some points (like Calvinism) which of course is a fairly big part.

So havok.. You sort of answered my question because you said you don't think Jesus ever made a mistake. Does this mean that you would affirmatively state that Jesus was the perfect student, carpenter, recaller of peoples' names etc? In other words would you affirm that not only did he exhibit sinless perfection but also everything-else-perfection?

I am sorry if it seems I am trying to pin you down but I am curious on what basis you say this because Heb 2:17 says that he was like us in every way and a hallmark of humans is that they make errors.

In other words I am not sure what in your theology compels you to think that Jesus knew how to tie his sandals on the very first try or that he never tripped and skinned his knee because he didn't watch where he was walking. Scripture also says that he is able to sympathize with our weaknesses.

Seriously not trying to pick on you just trying to understand. Perhaps I am dead wrong in my thinking.


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Todd

 2014/6/20 15:14Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

That's alright, TMK.


I really don't plan to discuss this anymore, at least at this time. The Scripture makes it clear that Jesus was perfect. It doesn't show that He made mistakes like the ones of which you are speaking. So how can I formulate a constrasting opinion. The best I can say is, "Scripture doesn't teach/show/discuss that." And the most negative I can say is simply, "I don't know." Either one is a valid answer from me.

I really feel like we are venturing into speculative theology now.

 2014/6/20 17:17Profile





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