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trxx
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Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 85
ON Canada

 Re:

"Psalm 22 is not about a single moment in time.

It is not until v. 21 that Jesus is answered."

I'm not sure what your point is. Could you expound a little


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Bruce

 2014/6/16 18:40Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Jesus was forsaken, but for only for a little while. Until it was finished. Psalm 22 does express the crucifixion but just like Isaiah 53 does not linger there. It moves on.

 2014/6/16 19:44Profile
trxx
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 85
ON Canada

 Re:

"Jesus was forsaken" I understand that you believe that. I don't any more though I once did. Neither do I find it necessary to believe. I understand why people hold to the belief. I also believe that I have given a reasonable explanation for Him to be understood as not being forsaken. My only hope in responding to the original post is that others might see an alternative to the common and in my opinion false belief that the Father somehow forsook Jesus. Perhaps we should clarify how it is that He was forsaken. Forsaken is defined as abandoned. How was Jesus abandoned? We cannot say that the Father turned away from Jesus except that we deny verse 24.
"Psalm 22 does express the crucifixion but just like Isaiah 53 does not linger there. It moves on." What does this statement illustrate? Why do you make this point?
Please, I am not trying to be critical, only wanting to understand + to cause others to consider why they believe. Before I couldn't tell you why I believed as I did but now having considered + tested I know precisely why I believe.


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Bruce

 2014/6/16 20:45Profile
Solomon101
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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 525
America's Heartand

 Re:

I could write these out myself but would not be able to say it any better. This post and the next one will be from respected ministers with numerous sermons on the SI site.

This first one is from the highly regarded A.W. Pink - It now follows

At the cross all our sins were laid upon Christ and therefore divine judgment fell upon Him. There was no way of transferring sin without also transferring its penalty. Both sin and its punishment were transferred to the Lord Jesus. On the cross Christ was making propitiation, and propitiation is solely Godwards. It was a question of meeting the claims of God’s holiness; it was a matter of satisfying the demands of His justice. Not only was Christ’s blood shed for us, but it was also shed for God: He "gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." (Ephesians 5:2). Thus, it was foreshadowed on the memorable night of the Passover in Egypt: the lamb’s blood must be where God’s eye could see it - "When I see the blood, I will pass over you!"

The death of Christ on the cross was a death of curse: "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" (Galatians 3:13). The "curse" is alienation from God. This is apparent from the words which Christ will yet speak to those that shall stand on His left hand in the day of His power - "Depart from me, you cursed," He will say (Matthew 25:41). The curse is exile from the presence and glory of God.

This explains the meaning of a number of Old Testament types. The bullock that was slain on the annual Day of Atonement, after its blood had been sprinkled upon and before the mercy-seat, was removed to a place outside the Camp" (Leviticus 16:27), and there its entire body was burned. It was in the center of the camp that God had his dwelling-place, and exclusion from the camp was banishment from the presence of God. Thus, it was, too, with the leper. "All the days that the plague shall be in him he shall be defiled; he is unclean: he shall dwell alone; without the camp shall his habitation be" (Leviticus 13:46) - this was because the leper was the embodied type of the sinner. Here also is the anti-type of the "brazen serpent." Why did God instruct Moses to set a "serpent" on a pole and bid the bitten Israelites look upon it? Imagine a serpent as a type of Christ the Holy One of God! It represented him as "made a curse for us," for the serpent was the reminder of the curse. On the cross then Christ was fulfilling these Old Testament foreshadowings. He was "outside the camp" (compare Hebrews 13:12) - separated from the presence of God. He was as the "leper" - made sin for us. He was as the "brazen serpent" - made a curse for us. Hence too, the deep meaning of the crown of thorns - the symbol of the curse! Lifted up, his brow encircled with thorns, to show he was bearing the curse for us.

Adapted from The Seven Sayings of the Saviour on the Cross, 4. The Word of Anguish, by A.W. Pink.

article can be seen in full at http://www.jesus.org/death-and-resurrection/the-crucifixion/how-did-jesus-become-a-curse-on-the-cross.html

 2014/6/16 20:56Profile
Solomon101
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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 525
America's Heartand

 Re:

This is the second one. It is from R.C. Sproul who also has a listing of quotes here on SI. It now follows-

The key to understanding the cry of Jesus from the cross is found in Paul's letter to the Galatians: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree'" (Galatians 3:13, NIV).

To be cursed is to be removed from the presence of God, to be set outside the camp, to be cut off from His benefits. On the cross, Jesus was cursed. That is, He represented the Jewish nation of covenant breakers who were exposed to the curse and took the full measure of the curse on Himself. As the Lamb of God, the Sin Bearer, He was cut off from the presence of God.

On the cross, Jesus entered into the experience of forsakenness on our behalf. God turned His back on Jesus and cut Him off from all blessing, from all keeping, from all grace, and from all peace.

God is too holy to even look at iniquity. God the Father turned His back on the Son, cursing Him to the pit of hell while He hung on the cross. Here was the Son’s “descent into hell.” Here the fury of God raged against Him. His scream was the scream of the damned. For us.

Reflect on what Jesus did for you on Calvary. Give thanks for the Lamb of God who bore your sin.

Taken from “Treasuring Redemption’s Price” by Ligonier Ministries

Article can be viewed at http://www.jesus.org/death-and-resurrection/the-crucifixion/jesus-became-a-curse-for-us.html

 2014/6/16 20:59Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Part of the problem is that there is no explicit scripture that says God forsook Jesus. There is only implication and surmising from various passages.

For example no where does scripture say that Jesus' cry was the "scream of the damned" like Sproul says. It is powerful rhetoric but scripture does not state this.


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Todd

 2014/6/16 21:27Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Quote:
no explicit scripture that says God forsook Jesus.



What about the verse in question and all the verses where God says he is going to utterly forsake us because of our sin, which Jesus became on the cross and endured all the promises that God made concerning judgment for those who would believe?

The issue here is that there is a great misunderstanding what happened on the cross. I agree it is not essential to believe that Jesus was forsaken in order to be saved; I can understand that The Father did not turn away; however, why do I have to know all of these extra Biblical facts in order to come to those conclusions that were suggested earlier in this thread. Would a man from Swaziland, having nothing but the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit come to that conclusion? Doubtfully.

A plain reading of the Scriptures is so important.

 2014/6/16 23:46Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

if we are willingly ignorant of what it means to be a curse ,,then that will be why we say Jesus was not forsaken of the father

any one like to give definitions of what being cursed means add to that what does it mean to become sin and to bare sins ,,and have the wrath of god poured out upon you

this is the opposite of being blessed of god ,,,,Jesus was cursed of god and forsaken punished by the absolute wrath of god

to say Jesus was forsaken doesn't even come close to describe what jesus went through for our sakes



he went through what we all should go through because of rebellion against god we should be forsaken and cursed from the presence of god

he tasted death for all men ,,,,what does it meAn to die

death is the beginnings' of the eternal separation ,( TO BE ETURNALY FORSAKEN )

AND brothers that is what our lord did for you and me ,,,

dont water down what he did for us ,,,let it cause a broken spirit and tears


look at the expiation that jesus suffered ,,as the lamb of god he suffered out side the camp ,just as the lamb of god of the old testament was forced to wonder out side of the city till it died , this is the shadow of Christ him self ,, ,that lamb was forsaken to death ,,this was all apart of the old testament atonement for sin ,,which jesus fulfilled in its reality in the new covenant atonement

it is so very clear if one looks at the old and new covenant atonements
blessing

 2014/6/17 2:57Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

This question now comes to mind:

1) In Gethsemane, Jesus prayed that the Father would "let this cup pass from me." In the OT the "cup" is a picture of God's wrath against the ungodly. Jeremiah, Isaiah and Psalms speak about the cup in this manner.

2) in Mt. 20, we see the following exchange: "22 But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”

They said to Him, “We are able.”

23 So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with;"

So, how can it be said that the disciples would drink the cup of God's fury against sin, if Jesus drank it for them?

If the cup is referencing physical suffering, it seems that each disciple did physically suffer for Christ. If the cup represents physical suffering and the pouring out of God's wrath, it is not clear in what manner the disciples would drink this cup as Jesus did.

Again I am drawing no firm conclusions just adding to the discussion.

Maybe persons here do not realize that there are differing views on the atonement that true believers hold.


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Todd

 2014/6/17 6:39Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

you need to rember we were in christ when he died ,,,paul said if one died then all died ,,,,,,,,we were in christ when the wrath of god was poured upon upon him it was poured upon us ,,,,,,,i was crusafied with christ

this is why jesus was quick to say you will drink my cup ,,,,,,,verry clear if we undertsand the mystery of being in christ ,,,changes nothing of the atonment brother

 2014/6/17 6:59Profile





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