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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

remember this one cursed is eveyone that hangs on a tree
he bacame a curse for us

this is what it means to be forsaken ,,,god forsakes all those who are cursed like this


this is no light thing that christ did for us ,,,we were forsaken of god ,,and god took our rightfull place ,,,,,,,dont down grade the gosple of the cross ,,and water it down to suit your theolighy ,,,what christ went through is partly incomprehendable

 2014/6/13 18:18Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

presious brothers watch eric ludys the tree ,,on you tube and see the old testament shodow of the cross in action under the law of moses



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ5wt72nWmA

 2014/6/13 18:21Profile









 Re:

Solomon101

Now if you go down to Verse 24 in Psalm 22, you get the answer to the question. It’s not recorded in the gospel, but it is in Psalms. Psalm 22:1, "Why have you forsaken me?" Verse 24, "He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted nor has he hidden his face for him. But when he cried to him for help, he heard."

The fact is GOD never forsook Him!!

In this verse the Bible states as an absolute fact that the Father and Holy Spirit had NOT forsaken Him at that moment of being made sin.

So what do you do with this verse?

Or the fact that God the Father was IN CHRIST the whole time, reconciling the world unto himself?

 2014/6/14 5:50
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

the full context of that tresure of scripture



Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning? 2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; And in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But You are holy, Enthroned in the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in You; They trusted, and You delivered them. 5 They cried to You, and were delivered; They trusted in You, and were not ashamed. 6 But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised by the people

we see one who is forsaken

A reproach of men, and despised by the people. 7 All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 "He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!" 9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts. 10 I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God. 11 Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For there is none to help.



we see one who is forsaken





You have brought Me to the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. 18 They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots. 19 But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me; O My Strength, hasten to help Me! 20 Deliver Me from the sword, My precious life from the power of the dog. 21 Save Me from the lion's mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me. 22



our father hears our crys THE CRYS OF christ and does not leave the lord forsaken cursed on the tree but after the lord is burIed out of sight of all, according to the old testamant law of moses the lord turnes his face back to his son




I HAVE OVER COME THE WORLD
You have answered Me. 22 I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. 23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel! 24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him He heard........


THE GOSPLE OF JESUS CHRIST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






the lord was not far from him though he forsook him and turnes from him as he was sin ,though he knew no sin ,a curse he became wile he hung on the tree,,,tasted a sinners death but was the righeousness of god ,,,,,

layed his life down as a substatute to our cursed life of being a forsaken satan following, sinner

 2014/6/14 9:50Profile
trxx
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 85
ON Canada

 Re: Did the Father, turn his face away from Christ, His own son?

I am not responding to anyone in particular really as much as I am responding to all who have posted in this thread so far. There is much that can be said concerning this topic. I too believe that Jesus was not forsaken at any point when He was crucified. There was another purpose in repeating those words from Psalm 22.
Forgive me if this post should become lengthy. I have many thoughts that want to speak out at the same time. Where to begin?
For myself, this all began about 4-5 years ago. I was in prayer when a number of thoughts flooded into my head in rapid succession. It was not unlike the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle coming together by themselves to form a picture. I was not looking for any understanding concerning Jesus’ words that He uttered from the cross, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” but I do recall not fully understanding why this should be yet not being overly troubled because there was an explanation – the Father turned away. Suddenly I understood why He said this. I was puzzled not by this “revelation” but by why it should be given me. I found out that I am not alone in this understanding though the majority of people may not agree. As we all ought to do, I have tested this according to the Scriptures and have found over the years that I cling even more to this truth that I realized that day. Truth must and will always stand up to the test of time and to the scrutiny of the Scriptures. Scripture will not contradict what God has revealed. You may not agree with the conclusion that Jesus was not forsaken, and while I agree that it is not essential to salvation I think it is important to know the truth and to know the character of God.
I have yet to find any Scriptural references that indicate that God the Father turned away from the Son or could not bear to look upon His beloved Son as He breathed His last upon the cross. It is the most common belief that I am aware of that as the sins were placed upon Jesus the Father could not look and in fact turned away from the Son and therefore Jesus felt the separation from the Father and the anguish being so great He cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” Show me from Scripture the reason that I ought to have continued in this understanding. Remember that we ought always to test everything according to Scripture.
I understood that the Psalms were the hymnbook of the Jewish people. Psalm 22 was written as a song and was dedicated or written to the chief musician or choirmaster. I also knew that they had a mind (memorized) for Scripture that is simply unknown to most of us today. I knew that there was no place that God could not see (Psalm 139). I knew that Psalm 22 is a messianic psalm that began, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” and went on to describe in detail what would take place a thousand years later. It was even hundreds of years before crucifixion would be developed by the Romans as a means of the most severe punishment available. Actually Psalm 22 is the first of a trilogy of psalms that deal with the Messiah who was to come. I personally knew songs that were so popular that I was able to recite every word myself. I also knew that Israel cherished the hope that they had in the Messiah to come and would have had a special heart or love for passages that spoke of His coming. So the pieces suddenly fit together. If I were to begin with but a portion of a popular song or saying the person to whom I was speaking would likely continue the thought without much consideration, almost automatically. I could imagine, in more modern technological advances, a DJ on the radio of Jerusalem in David’s time, introducing the number one hit of the day, Psalm 22 “To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.” It would have been as ancient karaoke, the listeners would have begun to sing along from the very start. If the song had stopped the listeners would have continued anyway. There is the key, I believe, that explains why Jesus cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” Jesus was leading the Jewish spectators to Psalm 22. It is, in my mind, no coincidence that Psalm 22 begins with these exact words. Neither was it coincidence that the scene described in Psalm 22 was being fulfilled before their very eyes. Even the ending of Psalm 22, verse 31, when translated may be rendered, “It is finished” the very last words of Jesus on the cross. Even a casual look at the ending of Psalm 22 in the different versions will verify this thought.
There was a teaching method that I later, a couple of years later, learned that a rabbi would use. The method is called “remez.” To quote,
The great teachers (rabbis) during Jesus' day used a technique that was later called remez. In their teaching, they would use part of a Scripture passage in a discussion, assuming that their audience's knowledge of the Bible would allow them to deduce for themselves the fuller meaning of the teaching. Apparently, Jesus, who possessed a brilliant understanding of Scripture and strong teaching skills, used this method often.
For example, when the children shouted "Hosanna" to him in the temple and the chief priests and teachers of the law became indignant (Matt. 21:15), Jesus responded by quoting Psalm 8:2: "From the lips of children and infants, you have ordained praise." The religious leaders' anger at Jesus can be better understood when we realize that the next phrase in the Psalm reveals why children and infants offer praise, because the enemies of God would be silenced. The religious leaders realized that Jesus was implying that they were God's enemies.
Jesus used this teaching method again when speaking to Zacchaeus. "For the Son of Man came to seek and save the lost," Jesus said (Luke 19:10). The background to this statement is probably Ezekiel 34. God, angry with Israel's leaders for scattering and harming his flock, stated that he would become the shepherd and would seek the lost ones and save them. Based on this, the people of Jesus' day understood that the Messiah to come would "seek and save" the lost. By using this phrase, knowing that his listeners knew the Scripture, Jesus communicated several things. To the people, he communicated, "I am the Messiah and also God." To the religious leaders, whose influence kept Zacchaeus out of the crowd, he said, "You have scattered and harmed God's flock." To Zacchaeus, he said, "You are one of God's lost sheep and he still loves you."
Jesus best fit the type of rabbi believed to have s'mikhah, the authority to make new interpretations of the Torah. Whereas most teachers of the law could only teach accepted interpretations, teachers with authority could make new interpretations and pass legal judgments. Crowds were amazed because Jesus taught with authority (Matt. 7:28-29), and some people questioned his authority (Matt. 21:23-27).
http://followtherabbi.com/world/encyclopedia/article/remez

Jesus was the ultimate rabbi and likely would have taught in traditional ways. I could almost see the witnesses to the crucifixion mulling over in their minds the 22nd Psalm when Jesus gave the opening line. They would have concluded that the scene that they were witnessing was being fulfilled before their very eyes. This must be the Messiah!

I also learned that there was Scriptural evidence that the Father never turned away or hid His face from Jesus. It was one of those times where you can’t believe that you have never seen something before but all of a sudden your eyes are opened to a verse. And it was in the very same psalm that I had learned to love. Psalm 22:24, says, “…Nor has He hidden His face from Him.” I couldn’t believe it. Scripture denied God the Father ever turned away or hid His face from the Son. Where could the Father turn to anyway that He would not see. Nowhere.

Jesus never referred to the Father as His God but always spoke in a unique manner of His Father declaring a unique relationship to Him. Jesus was quoting the beginning of the psalm, “My God, My God…” to lead the people into a revelation of the truth that He was the Messiah spoken of in Psalm 22.
We believe, according to the words of Hebrews 13 that God will never forsake or leave those that are His children. But are we expected to believe that the Father would forsake His beloved Son in whom He was well pleased. If He would forsake His only begotten Son in His hour of greatest need then what confidence can we have that He would not forsake us? No, the very character of the Father does not permit Him to forsake His own, those that are His children. He must be true to Himself. He does promise to forsake the wicked though. But He won’t forsake us nor would He forsake His Son.
Jesus simply quoted Scripture to reveal the truth about Himself as His life ebbed there on the cross. The Father hid not His face from Him.

Another reason that I love Psalm 22 is found in verse 6, “But I am a worm and not a man.” Do a little research into the Hebrew word used there for “worm.” It is the crimson worm or “Tola at"! It's full name is Tola'at Shani; or Crimson or Scarlet Worm (Coccus Ilicis.)” and tells the story of the Gospel. http://www.discovercreation.org/newsletters/TheCrimsonOrScarletWorm.htm but that’s a whole other story and yet part of the same. AMAZING!


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Bruce

 2014/6/15 18:29Profile
Solomon101
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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 527
America's Heartand

 Re:

trxx -

I read your post. In my mind there are several scriptures that immediately jump out and appear to stand in contradiction to your interpretation on Psalm 22. I could just list them out. However, I am not sure that would be helpful at the moment. I first want to find out what your thoughts are on the atonement of Christ.

I asked most of these questions of tuc. Twice in fact. He has not chosen to answer them as of yet. I have only seen some various posts devoted to defending a very specific thought about Christ's atonement in response. It is a position on Christ's sacrifice based exclusively on a highly debatable interpretation of one solitary Old Testament verse.

I will ask those questions of you and see if you wish to respond. A persons answers to these questions will largely determine where their beliefs are on this topic. These questions are further key to having a solid understanding in this area.


1. So you the ARE saying that Jesus was completely wrong and in total error about what was actually happening to Him on the cross as He was made sin with our sin? Jesus was further wrong and in error as to what had to happen for the plan of salvation to be accomplished? Correct?

2. You believe that Jesus misunderstood what was happening to Him, and had to happen, for man to have sin paid for. Correct?

3. You believe this because of your interpretation of the verse in Psalms 22?

4. Do you hold to a position that Jesus The Christ is God? Do you hold to a position that the Holy Spirit is God? Do you use them interchangeably or note distinct differences in them?

5. What do you think was the full and total required price that had to be paid for the sin of the human race? What was the full and total price that had to be paid to give a man the ability to be found righteous in the sight of God?

6. Do you believe that the Godhead portion of The Father and Holy Spirit extracted the vengeance, penalty, and full price of man's sin from the Son, Jesus The Christ? In essence did the Father and Holy Spirit strike the Son as a payment for mans sin. A payment that the Son paid of His own free will and volition.

7. What would be your exact and specific definition of, "The Father turned His face away from Christ", as you have addressed it in this thread?

8. When Jesus cried and sweat greats drops of blood in the garden of Gethsemane, wishing the cup to pass from Him and another path for mans forgiveness to be found if possible, what do you believe Jesus was referring to? Was it merely a physical beating and crucifixion that caused Him to recoil in such despair? I personally find that a little difficult to believe. There were thousands of regular every day men being crucified that faced their deaths with little to none of the fear and anguish Jesus showed at Gethsemane. Was Jesus just a wimp in your estimation or was He actually facing something far greater than simply a physical crucifixion. Was He simply afraid of physical death ... or was He in anguish over the idea of being separated from the Father and Holy Spirit as He, and He alone, was actually made sin for our sin and paid the required price for the salvation of mankind? What say you?

 2014/6/16 10:28Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Brothers,

I think what we are lacking some common sense here.

I am NOT a proponent of the Lord writing scripture just so that he could reference it later.

He could have started that Psalm with ANYTHING, but He chose to start it with, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me."

The author of all Scripture could have said anything else, if what you are saying is true--that it was for the sole purpose of bringing to rememberance a Psalm. Jesus was forsaken by the Father, not by presence, but by the relationship that they had being thrown aside and Jesus enduring the wrath of God. God hates sin. Jesus became sin for us.

Yes, they should have been reminded of Psalm 22, but there is a reason why He says, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?"


I want to employ a little worldly logic here.

If a mother pays no attention to her child or treats the child with contempt. Then they get slapped with the charge of negligence.

I don't see any problem with believing that the Father forsook the son, because the Father was pouring out His wrath on the Son. He wasn't turning His face away. No. It was the outpouring of wrath.

 2014/6/16 12:16Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

For the record I believe that God did turn away from Jesus.

That being said and if Jesus was not intending to point to Ps 22 for the sake of the Pharisees etc, why did He quote the opening lines? Why didn't He just say something else?

Also is it possible that Jesus felt forsaken but was not actually forsaken?

This has nothing to do with Jesus being "wrong" because Jesus emptied himself when he took on the form of a man. There are some things that Jesus did not know because the Father had not revealed them to him.


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Todd

 2014/6/16 14:05Profile
trxx
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Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 85
ON Canada

 Re:

With all due respect I am afraid that I find some of your questioning irrelevant to the topic. The topic is, "Did the Father turn His face away from His Son?" Perhaps you might, as you have suggested, be able to show us the Scripture that supports this teaching. Keep in mind that Verse 24 of Psalm 22 says that He did not hide His face. Why you find it necessary to question whether someone, who holds to the belief that the Father did not turn away nor did He forsake His Son, holds to the deity of Jesus, or belief in the Person + deity of the Holy Spirit I cannot fathom. However, I'm sure that all of these questions would be better understood if you were to explain your reason behind them. It would take far too long to properly answer every one of your questions.
Let me be brief + answer at least some of your questions.
1. No
2. No
3. Not meaningful considering answers to 1 + 2
4. Yes
5. + 6. The atonement provided by the sacrifice of Jesus is not in question here. Nor does it change from orthodoxy because one believes what the Scripture reveals, that the Father did not hide His face.
7.Perhaps it would be better if you could explain your thoughts on the Father turning away from His Son as I don't hold to the belief that He did, nor that He would, or even that He could. Are you willing to suggest that there is somewhere that the Father could not see, if He were to "turn His back" or hide His face.
7. Too many questions here. Some not sure why you ask. Obviously, I would not believe that Jesus would be in agony because He feared separation from the Father. Remember that He "set His face" for Jerusalem. He knew what awaited Him. Nothing was hidden from Him.

Please understand that I held to the belief that the Father turned away from the Son, that He could not bear to look upon Him as the sins of the world were poured out upon the Son. That was until I was given to understand otherwise.
I have tested this to see if it is true + have yet to find anything, that holds but a drop of water, to contradict it.
If Jesus only quoted from Psalm 22, and the words are exactly as it is written, to point the witnesses of His crucifixion to the Psalm in order that they would realize its fulfillment + therefore confirming His claim of being the Messiah, according to common rabbinical teaching methods, then we do not need to believe that the Father hid His face or turned away + forsook His Son. Nor do we need to contradict Scripture's own testimony.
Please feel free to list out your Scriptural proof. I may discuss but I refuse to argue. I have put my understanding out there + its for you to test according to Scripture. As we are to test all things.


_________________
Bruce

 2014/6/16 17:48Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

TRXX,

Psalm 22 is not about a single moment in time.

It is not until v. 21 that Jesus is answered.

 2014/6/16 17:51Profile





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