Did the Father, turn his face away from Christ, His own son?That’s one of the biggest misunderstandings in the modern church. Jesus asked the question. What did God answer in that gospel, in the gospels? What was the answer God gave? He didn’t, did He? He didn’t give an answer. So people assume God the Father forsook his son Jesus. The answer is he didn’t forsake his son. That was the cry of Jesus when he became sin for us. If he had heard the answer right then and there God would have said, "I haven’t forsaken you." You say, ‘how do you know?’ I’ll prove it. Psalm 22 is the Messianic Psalm from which that verse, that cry of Jesus came. The first verse of Psalm 22, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" You can go on down and read that Psalm and bit by bit you see it’s talking about the cross right down to them casting lots for his garments - everything. Now if you go down to Verse 24 in Psalm 22, you get the answer to the question. It’s not recorded in the gospel, but it is in Psalms. Psalm 22:1, "Why have you forsaken me?" Verse 24, "He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted nor has he hidden his face for him. But when he cried to him for help, he heard."The Father never forsook His son. People say, well, they were separated. But it is impossible for the Deity to ever be be separted or fragmented. The Godhead would have ceased to exist. The Father, Son, and Spirit have always been one. It’s never wavered for one moment, even at the cross, which is encouraging to us because like Jesus, when we cry out “why have you forsaken me”, we can know God says, "I haven’t. I’m with you."Do not forget that the bible says that God Himself was in Christ reconciling the word unto Himself as Christ hung on the cross.2 Cor. 5:19; “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:45-46 ESVMy God (Father), My God (Holy Spirit), WHY have you forsaken me? (emphasis mine)In that verse Jesus states as an absolute fact that The Father and Holy Spirit had forsaken Him at that moment of being made sin. He then asks The Father and Holy Spirit why They had done so.Are you then saying that Jesus was completely wrong and in total error about what was actually happening, and had to happen, to accomplish the plan of salvation?
How about this Solomon--That we was quoting the opening lines of that very prophetic psalm for the benefit of the scribes and Pharisees who would have known the rest of the psalm?I have always thought that was a distinct possibility although I am not overly sold on either interpretation. I am not sure why it matters if God really forsook Jesus on the cross. He may have but I am not sure how necessary it is to believe that.
It is true Jesus said it - that is what He felt at that time as a human man but that does not mean that God truly forsake Him. How is it possible that God the Father was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation and forsaking Him at the same time?
TMK - I am not sure why it matters if God really forsook Jesus on the cross. He may have but I am not sure how necessary it is to believe that.
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Hi Tuc-Just to clarify -you stated
It is true Jesus said it - that is what He felt at that time as a human man but that does not mean that God truly forsake Him.
There is a couple of quick things that I want to say about this subject. The atonement is wonderful to study and think about and just dig into the scriptures about.Let's look at Isaiah 53, which is also a picture of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus:
Who has believed our report?And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,And as a root out of dry ground.He has no form or comeliness;And when we see Him,There is no beauty that we should desire Him.He is despised and rejected by men,A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.Surely He has borne our griefsAnd carried our sorrows;Yet we esteemed Him stricken,Smitten by God, and afflicted.But He was wounded for our transgressions,He was bruised for our iniquities;The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,And by His stripes we are healed.6 All we like sheep have gone astray;We have turned, every one, to his own way;And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.He was oppressed and He was afflicted,Yet He opened not His mouth;He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,So He opened not His mouth.He was taken from prison and from judgment,And who will declare His generation?For He was cut off from the land of the living;For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.And they made His grave with the wicked—But with the rich at His death,Because He had done no violence,Nor was any deceit in His mouth.Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;He has put Him to grief.When You make His soul an offering for sin,He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,For He shall bear their iniquities.Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,Because He poured out His soul unto death,And He was numbered with the transgressors,And He bore the sin of many,And made intercession for the transgressors.
It is true Jesus said it - that is what He felt at that time as a human man but that does not mean that God truly forsake Him. The fact is GOD never forsook Him!!Now if you go down to Verse 24 in Psalm 22, you get the answer to the question. It’s not recorded in the gospel, but it is in Psalms. Psalm 22:1, "Why have you forsaken me?" Verse 24, "He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted nor has he hidden his face for him. But when he cried to him for help, he heard."How could God forsake Himself?You are free disagree.
Hey Tuc-As stated earlier in the thread - this is not necessarily essential to salvation to agree on every point so I don't wish to make it an issue larger than it is. However, you must also be honest and consistent if you are going to stake out a position as you have.havok20x raised some very valid thoughts concerning the cost of atonement in his post.
Tuc stated - It is true Jesus said it - that is what He felt at that time as a human man but that does not mean that God truly forsake Him. The fact is GOD never forsook Him!!
Well said havok. One thing I would like to say about Is 53 and God being "pleased" to crush his Son.., I think the word "pleased" is used in the sense that he was willing to do it and that it was necessary to do it but not that he was "happy" about it. Tuc- If God DID turn his back or forsake Jesus when he "became sin" it is something that is simply a mystery. We can either accept it as mystery or try to explain that away or accept it as something mystical which it certainly would be. I do tend to believe that the emotional violence Jesus suffered exceeded his physical pain and I think the fact that he was forsaken explains this. That anguish began in Gethsemane. It was not primarily physical pain He was dreading. It was something deeper that we with our pea sized brains cannot fully grasp. But that is ok because we don't have to fully grasp it. How could we?