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 Did the Father, turn his face away from Christ, His own son?

Did the Father, turn his face away from Christ, His own son?

That’s one of the biggest misunderstandings in the modern church. Jesus asked the question. What did God answer in that gospel, in the gospels? What was the answer God gave? He didn’t, did He? He didn’t give an answer. So people assume God the Father forsook his son Jesus.

The answer is he didn’t forsake his son. That was the cry of Jesus when he became sin for us. If he had heard the answer right then and there God would have said, "I haven’t forsaken you." You say, ‘how do you know?’ I’ll prove it.

Psalm 22 is the Messianic Psalm from which that verse, that cry of Jesus came. The first verse of Psalm 22, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" You can go on down and read that Psalm and bit by bit you see it’s talking about the cross right down to them casting lots for his garments - everything. Now if you go down to Verse 24 in Psalm 22, you get the answer to the question. It’s not recorded in the gospel, but it is in Psalms. Psalm 22:1, "Why have you forsaken me?" Verse 24, "He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted nor has he hidden his face for him. But when he cried to him for help, he heard."

The Father never forsook His son. People say, well, they were separated. But it is impossible for the Deity to ever be be separted or fragmented. The Godhead would have ceased to exist. The Father, Son, and Spirit have always been one. It’s never wavered for one moment, even at the cross, which is encouraging to us because like Jesus, when we cry out “why have you forsaken me”, we can know God says, "I haven’t. I’m with you."

Do not forget that the bible says that God Himself was in Christ reconciling the word unto Himself as Christ hung on the cross.

2 Cor. 5:19; “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”

 2014/6/13 15:02
Solomon101
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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 526
America's Heartand

 Re: Did the Father, turn his face away from Christ, His own son?

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:45-46 ESV

My God (Father), My God (Holy Spirit), WHY have you forsaken me? (emphasis mine)

In that verse Jesus states as an absolute fact that The Father and Holy Spirit had forsaken Him at that moment of being made sin. He then asks The Father and Holy Spirit why They had done so.

Are you then saying that Jesus was completely wrong and in total error about what was actually happening, and had to happen, to accomplish the plan of salvation?

 2014/6/13 15:34Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

How about this Solomon--

That we was quoting the opening lines of that very prophetic psalm for the benefit of the scribes and Pharisees who would have known the rest of the psalm?

I have always thought that was a distinct possibility although I am not overly sold on either interpretation.

I am not sure why it matters if God really forsook Jesus on the cross. He may have but I am not sure how necessary it is to believe that.


_________________
Todd

 2014/6/13 16:06Profile









 Re:

It is true Jesus said it - that is what He felt at that time as a human man but that does not mean that God truly forsake Him.

How is it possible that God the Father was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation and forsaking Him at the same time?

 2014/6/13 16:06
Solomon101
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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 526
America's Heartand

 Re:

Quote:
TMK - I am not sure why it matters if God really forsook Jesus on the cross. He may have but I am not sure how necessary it is to believe that.



Agreed. It is not essential to salvation. It seems to me that a persons answer to that question will hinge largely upon their answers to the following two questions.

1. What is the actual price that must be paid for mans sin in order to purchase righteousness in its place.

2. A persons thoughts on the literal reading of 2 Cor 5:21
Quote:
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

. In essence is that verse literally true. Did the Father and Holy Spirit make Christ TO BE sin .... not just BEAR SIN. What it literally says is quiet clear. However, that is to much for some people and alternative thoughts are abundant. The answer to that question has a great influence on a persons thoughts concerning the Father and Holy Spirit forsaking Jesus in the Matthew 27:46 scripture.

 2014/6/13 16:21Profile
Solomon101
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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 526
America's Heartand

 Re:

Hi Tuc-

Just to clarify -

you stated

Quote:
It is true Jesus said it - that is what He felt at that time as a human man but that does not mean that God truly forsake Him.



So you the ARE saying that Jesus was completely wrong and in total error about what was actually happening, and had to happen, to accomplish the plan of salvation? Correct? You believe that Jesus misunderstood what was happening to Him, and had to happen, for man to have sin paid for. Correct? Or am I somehow misunderstanding you?

 2014/6/13 16:22Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

There is a couple of quick things that I want to say about this subject. The atonement is wonderful to study and think about and just dig into the scriptures about.

Let's look at Isaiah 53, which is also a picture of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus:

Quote:

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.



The last paragraph is pretty important in regards to this. I have heard so many times people say that The Father turned away from the Son, because He could not look at sin or at the suffering Jesus was enduring. I really haven't ever seen that said in scriptures. Instead, what I find is that the Father was pouring out His wrath on the Son. Look at the last paragraph, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief." Who did that? The Father. He did it. He poured out His wrath and Jesus willingly gave up His life.

That is precisely why we can be forgiven. All the wrath that we deserve, has already been paid for. Jesus Christ paid for it. By a much better sacrifice than anything we could provide, Jesus became our sacrifice and has brought us near to God.

So what about Matthew 27:46. Did the Father forsake the Son? Yes. But forsake doesn't mean that somehow God couldn't see Jesus. God sees everything. He is omniscient. Nothing in this tiny universe escapes his notice, because the entire thing is sustained by His will and every star is named and in its place.

Notice in Psalm 22 how there comes a point where the Lord does indeed answer Him. Jesus was forsaken, but not forever. He paid the penalty of our sin and died. But just before He died, He said, "It is finished!"

We can take confidence in that. Just like the song Amazing Love says, "I'm forgiven, because you were forsaken. I'm accepted. You were condemned. I'm alive and well. You're Spirit lives within me, because you died and rose again."

 2014/6/13 16:52Profile









 Re:

It is true Jesus said it - that is what He felt at that time as a human man but that does not mean that God truly forsake Him.

The fact is GOD never forsook Him!!

Now if you go down to Verse 24 in Psalm 22, you get the answer to the question. It’s not recorded in the gospel, but it is in Psalms. Psalm 22:1, "Why have you forsaken me?" Verse 24, "He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted nor has he hidden his face for him. But when he cried to him for help, he heard."

How could God forsake Himself?

You are free disagree.

 2014/6/13 16:54
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 526
America's Heartand

 Re:

Hey Tuc-

As stated earlier in the thread - this is not necessarily essential to salvation to agree on every point so I don't wish to make it an issue larger than it is. However, you must also be honest and consistent if you are going to stake out a position as you have.

havok20x raised some very valid thoughts concerning the cost of atonement in his post.

Quote:
Tuc stated - It is true Jesus said it - that is what He felt at that time as a human man but that does not mean that God truly forsake Him.

The fact is GOD never forsook Him!!



In response I also asked some very specific and exact questions about your positions. You have so far declined to answer them.

I will ask them again.

1. So you the ARE saying that Jesus was completely wrong and in total error about what was actually happening, and had to happen, to accomplish the plan of salvation? Correct?

2. You believe that Jesus misunderstood what was happening to Him, and had to happen, for man to have sin paid for. Correct?

3. You believe this because of your interpretation of the verse in Psalms 22?

If you would address or directly answer these questions from the stance you have taken it would be helpful.

A few more questions come to mind as well -

4. Do you hold to a position that Jesus The Christ is God? Do you hold to a position that the Holy Spirit is God? Do you use them interchangeably or note a difference in them?

5. What do you think was the full and total required price to pay for the sin of the human race and purchase the ability of man to be found righteous in the sight of God?

6. Do you believe that the Godhead portion of The Father and Holy Spirit extracted the vengeance, penalty, and full price of man's sin from the Son, Jesus The Christ? In essence did the Father and Holy Spirit strike the Son as a payment for mans sin. A payment that the Son paid of His own free will and volition.

7. When Jesus cried and sweat greats drops of blood in the garden of Gethsemane, wishing the cup to pass from Him and another path for mans forgiveness to be found if possible, what do you believe Jesus was referring to? Was it merely a physical beating and crucifixion that caused Him to recoil in such despair? I personally find that a little difficult to believe. There were thousands of regular every day men being crucified that faced their deaths with little to none of the fear and anguish Jesus showed at Gethsemane. Was Jesus just a wimp in your estimation or was He actually facing something far greater than simply a physical crucifixion. Was He simply afraid of physical death .. or was He in anguish over the idea of being separated from the Father and Holy Spirit as He, and He alone, was actually made sin for our sin and paid the required price for the salvation of mankind? What say you?

If you would be willing to answer those 7 specific questions in a direct and straight forward manner it would be most appreciated.

 2014/6/13 17:29Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Well said havok.

One thing I would like to say about Is 53 and God being "pleased" to crush his Son.., I think the word "pleased" is used in the sense that he was willing to do it and that it was necessary to do it but not that he was "happy" about it.

Tuc- If God DID turn his back or forsake Jesus when he "became sin" it is something that is simply a mystery. We can either accept it as mystery or try to explain that away or accept it as something mystical which it certainly would be. I do tend to believe that the emotional violence Jesus suffered exceeded his physical pain and I think the fact that he was forsaken explains this. That anguish began in Gethsemane. It was not primarily physical pain He was dreading. It was something deeper that we with our pea sized brains cannot fully grasp. But that is ok because we don't have to fully grasp it. How could we?


_________________
Todd

 2014/6/13 17:36Profile





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