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ravin
Member



Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re:

"I will ask these questions, honestly looking for your personal opinion:

1) On September 10, 2001, God sends you to the World Trade Center to attempt to convert those who are headed for certain tragedy. Your message: the gospel of Jesus Christ. What do you say?

2) I have 2 minutes to live, tell me what I must do to be saved."







There is a world dying today. My wife and myself and a brother are working on the reservation, we have been told if we don't stop (by the gangs and traditionist) we will pay for it. already this year a dear brother payed with his life, was murdered by a gang member.
we are told that may happen to us if we don't stop what we are doing. you don't have to go far to find danger, but you do have to go and find the lost.
so in this matter we ask for prayer as we go, after all Christ did give us a command "go ye unto all the world and teach"

 2005/7/7 20:40Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

todd,

Yes, my friend, I am trying to say I disagree with you.

The point I'm trying to make is that we must warn sinners. Like the trumpeter of Ezekiel 33, we must let them know of the wrath that is to come. If we don't tell them what to repent of, how can they repent? How can they know sin without the law?

Matthew 1:21 says that Jesus will save his people from their sins, and I tell people that. Avoiding the law in witnessing is like avoiding the rulebook while trying to call fouls during a game. Paul said, "I had not known sin, but by the law."

The law provides an easy, and most times inoffensive, way to witness the lost. With the use of the law, we can witness easily, and quickly if necessary. Everyone knows that Christ died for our sins, but the average lost person thinks they are a "good person" and they think good people will go to heaven. The law in witnessing shows them that the wrath of God abides on them, and that they need a Saviour.

You said you used to be really into Comfort. Do you use the law when you witness?


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/7/8 8:55Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

If I may, I would like to just input a little something here.

I personally am not a huge fan of Ray Comfort's evangelism methods. Not because he believes the Law is meant to convert, no, because I do believe this, but because He has actually missed the root message of the Law. Let me explain briefly:

Ray wants people to admit they are liars, thieves, adulterers etc... and this is probably true, yet he is focusing on these things which, I will suggest to you now, are merely [b]fruit[/b] on the tree of sin. That there is a much deeper wickedness in man than just: "I stole this, I killed that." Cain's great sin wasn't that he killed Abel, but the killing of Abel was just the manifestation of a greater evil.

And this is the evil, listen to this carefully: [i]"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."[/i] - Romans 1:25
The real sin of the garden of Eden was that Adam and Eve loved the created thing rather than the Creator. They chose the tree rather than God. This is the great fall of man that cursed Adam and had him banned from God's presence. All other sins are merely fruit of this evil sin.

Do you see this? This is what a sinner is. And so Jesus came to reconcile man to God, that we would once again love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.

-Eli


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2005/7/8 9:16Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Eli,

I like that avatar first off. Yes that is true, these things are fruit of turning one's back on God. But if I say to Joe on the street, you have turned your back on God, worship Him with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, he still doesn't have the knowledge of how, specifically he has offended God.

If I discipline my daughter after she has lied to me, by telling her she has turned her back on me, that is not adressing the issue, even though it is true.

While you are correct, showing a sinner how he has trangressed God's Law, is giving him evidence of exactly what you said, just like civil court. It makes him understand that he has not loved the Lord your God with all his heart, mind, soul, and strength, by showing him [b]how[/b] he has not loved the Lord your God with his heart, mind, soul and strength.

How do you witness to people when you do?


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/7/8 9:56Profile
Tex_Hill
Member



Joined: 2005/6/14
Posts: 11
Bonham, TX

 Re:

Quote:

Eli_Barnabas wrote:
If I may, I would like to just input a little something here.

I personally am not a huge fan of Ray Comfort's evangelism methods. Not because he believes the Law is meant to convert, no, because I do believe this, but because He has actually missed the root message of the Law. Let me explain briefly:

Ray wants people to admit they are liars, thieves, adulterers etc... and this is probably true, yet he is focusing on these things which, I will suggest to you now, are merely [b]fruit[/b] on the tree of sin. That there is a much deeper wickedness in man than just: "I stole this, I killed that." Cain's great sin wasn't that he killed Abel, but the killing of Abel was just the manifestation of a greater evil.

And this is the evil, listen to this carefully: [i]"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."[/i] - Romans 1:25
The real sin of the garden of Eden was that Adam and Eve loved the created thing rather than the Creator. They chose the tree rather than God. This is the great fall of man that cursed Adam and had him banned from God's presence. All other sins are merely fruit of this evil sin.

Do you see this? This is what a sinner is. And so Jesus came to reconcile man to God, that we would once again love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.

-Eli




Love of self is the root of all sin. You can't expect an unrepentant sinner to understand that fact right away, no more than you can expect a 4th grade math student to understand integral calculus.

You have to bring them to that realization by steps, and step one is revealing to them that they have broken God's Law. I know from personal experience, that sinners cannot understand the roots of their sins until they have been humbled by the Law, and sought forgiveness at the foot of the cross.



In Christ,
Tex Hill


_________________
Noel

 2005/7/8 10:08Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Yes, love of self, the created rather than love of God.

And please, to clarify, I was in no way talking about how to tell the gospel or what methods of this and that to use. I was simply making a comment on the root of sin, and nothing more. You are right, Tex, you need to go step by step, and Ray does this, but I find he leaves the person thinking that the reason they are going to hell is because they stole something or did some deed. If they don't understand the rotten root within than how can someone truly surrender?

If I might add to my last post:

This is the ultimate reason why we are sentenced to hell, not because I stole a piece of gum that I go to hell, or I shouted at my parents, but I deserve hell because of my hatred towards God. And if you see things in this way, than you can see how everyone deserves hell because we all have not loved God as we ought.

The point of the Law wasn't to show people that they couldn't keep it... it was to show them that they [b]wouldn't[/b] keep it.


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2005/7/8 13:33Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

lgb,
I am not totally opposed to what you say, but I do want to suggest that there's a better way. I also think that Comfort's way is, though not necessarily wrong in my opinion, incomplete.

See how you look to the Old Testament for explanation? Psalms, Ezekiel, etc. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong for New Testament times, but consider that.

The example I have noticed as set forth in the New Testament includes the power of God. That's the new way, if you will. It seems clear that the early Church witnessed so effectively because they had the anointing of the Holy Spirit and power just like Jesus. I'm saying that's what we really need.

Using Comfort's ideas are ok I think, it's probably better than nothing. But we need the anointing and power of God. Just look through Acts and you see it. Healings, signs, wonders, miracles, radical boldness, angels, the supernatural. That's what we need in these days. I believe that's what the lost are looking for and what will bring them in. The Holy Spirit Himself will convict of sin. Sure, He may do it through us by use of the Law, but He may not. He may just do it.

I feel like all the other methods we have of evangelism, those that don't require the power of God and the supernatural, are ok- but there's a better way. You know what I mean?

In fact, I have a growing conviction that presenting the Gospel without the accompanying power of God is presenting it incomplete.

Romans 15:18-19
"For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word [b]and deed[/b], in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have [i]fully[/i] preached the gospel of Christ.

And I quote Paul's example again:
1 Corinthians 2:4-5
"And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

To answer the personal question you asked me, like I've said, I'm not totally opposed to the use of the Law... I don't think I've used it much.

 2005/7/8 14:23Profile
Tex_Hill
Member



Joined: 2005/6/14
Posts: 11
Bonham, TX

 Re:

There were those who witnessed the miracles of Christ first hand, and yet they still did not believe. The lost don't know that they are "looking" for. Today it's inner peace through Christ, tomorrow it will be enlightenment through Budda.

The point is they are reaching out for something that will make THEM feel better about THEMSELVES. That is a man centered gospel and does not poduce lasting results. This is the gospel that our churches have been preaching the past 50 years or more, & this is why churches cannot account for over 90% of all new "Christians" 1 year after their "conversion"

If we have put on the Lord Jesus Christ for the right motive—to flee from the wrath to come—then when tribulation strikes, when the flight gets bumpy, we won’t get angry at God, and we won’t lose our joy and peace.Why should we? We didn’t come to Christ for a better lifestyle, but to flee from the wrath to come. If anything, tribulation drives the true believer closer to the Savior. Sadly, we have multitudes of professing Christians who lose their joy and peace when the flight gets bumpy.Why? They are the product of a man-centered gospel. They came lacking repentance,without which they cannot be saved. And how can a sinner have repentance apart from the law?


In Christ,
Tex Hill


_________________
Noel

 2005/7/8 14:59Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
But we need the anointing and power of God.



Amen brother. It is what we need. Though I don't completely agree with your last post, I know what you are saying and your right. We need to be filled with Holy Spirit, clothed with power from on high, and washed in the fire of God. That's what we need, not more methodology, but Holy Ghost power, yet it seems rare these days indeed.


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2005/7/8 15:01Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

It seems that we are talking past each other. While the power of God is lacking today in us, this is not Tex's point or my point. The point is, what do you offer as the main fruit of becoming a Christian. The only proper is answer is eternal life.

If I offer someone the power of God, they may already have the power of Satan. If someone can tell the future and make a living out of it, what good is it for me to say, "Would you like to see my gift of discernment, or how about miracle." It then becomes a choice of "what will be cooler." What is cooler to the sinner? Power and a life of sacrifice, or power and a life of indulgence. Why is the occult so popular? Because you get power with no strings.
Look at Pharaoh's magician's. Look at the power given to Satan in Revelation. He will work all kinds of awesome wonders.

Think about what you guys posted and then read this: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not PROPHESIED in thy name? and in thy name have CAST OUR DEVILS? and IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Miracles, wonders, and the power of God are legitimate fruits of salvation, but they are not legitimate drawcards for salvation. If someone isn't born again they will not see the kingdom of heaven. We need to be honest and just tell them this. If you can raise someone from the dead after you do this, go ahead. But a sinner won't flee the wrath that is to come until you tell them to.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/7/8 21:44Profile





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