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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1806
Hemel Hempstead


I was looking up John Wesley they banned him from all the churches in england and it was said that his parish was the world

Dominic Shiells

 2005/4/16 16:41Profile

 Re: Worldliness

In truth, the church will look like the world until those things that we held dear to us falls away. Legalism puts on an open show in church, but at home the true is revealed.

What is revealed at home is not bad, what is shown at church is bad. No one is real, no one knows one another, therefore we are not accountable to anyone.

The New Testement gives us hints as to a certain amount of time to grow, and we are not stay in one spot forever. We are to move on, as Wigglesworth and Eli Barnabas states, if your not pressing forward, your backslidden.


 2005/4/16 17:20


A good example of Jesus preaching against sin to sinners is John 4:14. Here we find the story the Samaritan women at the well. It wasn't until Jesus told her that she was living with a different man and opened her eyes to the sin in her life that she understood who He was and what it meant for her. Also Paul's biggest book on sin was Romans. You can't read it one time through and not see that he preached against sin.

 2005/4/16 23:15

Joined: 2004/1/6
Posts: 61

 Re: Controversial Subject

You wrote: "Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them". And,
"they went forth, and preached every where, the ,Lord working with them and confirming the word with signs following."

Paul went everywhere preaching the same Christ:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."

Why isn't he preaching sin? Because sin is not the Good News nor is it glad tidings. Can we believe that the Holy Spirit can do His job, if we do ours?"

Mark 16:15 "And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world and preach(kerusso) the gospel"

Mat 4:17 "...Jesus began to preach (kerusso) and to say " Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

Mat 4:23 "And Jesus went... teaching... and preaching the gospel of the kingdom..."

So, I belive preaching sin and repentance, is part of the gospel we were sent to preach. Crist did die and paid for the sins, but only if we repent.


 2005/4/21 6:07Profile

 Re: Corneliu

Corneliu wrote:

So, I belive preaching sin and repentance, is part of the gospel we were sent to preach. Crist did die and paid for the sins, but only if we repent.

I am not doubting this, but as always with postings we have a difficult time seeing into the message that is being presented.

The message of the gospel is this:

"[b]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.[/b]"

This is the first part of the message of the gospel, the second part is repentance, the remedy that will bring us to God.

The Gospel is not a thrashing message used against sinners so they can line up to our "standards".

There is a vast difference between a sinner and a person who is wicked. The sinner will confess that they do sin, a wicked person will not, they hide behind pretenses and show. The Roman Catholic Church is a prime example, the sect of the Pharisees is another example, because they said "we see, therefore their sin remaineth". The sinner will say, "I can't see, show me the way".


 2005/4/21 9:03

Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia



I am responding to this:

"Now, if we consider what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost.

He preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Peter mentions one thing that they did and that was that they crucified their Christ. He didn't say that some were queers, whores, or thieves, didn't mention anything like that, but the holy Spirit was convicting 5000 hearts at one moment (thats quite a crowd)."

The reason that Peter preached Christ crucified is that these were godly Jews assembling that already knew the terror of the law. Paul said:

"Whereby knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men."

He also said:

"I had not known sin, but by the law"

There are cases where grace does not seem to be predeced by law, sin, and judgement, but it is there. The men that asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" were given the reply, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved." But what had these men that asked this question seen? They had seen the men that had preached repentance, mocked and rebuked by people that were so convicted they wanted to kill them, but they threw them in jail. Once the preachers were in jail, they prayed until the prison shook. Only then did then men ask, "What shall I do to be saved?" Because they were persuaded by the terror of the Lord.

If Jesus is our Lord and Saviour, what does He save us from? Scripture doesn't specifically say Hell, though it implies that and He does save us from Hell. It doesn't say specifically that He saves us from the second death, though He does. The first chapter of the New Testament instruction manual, Matthew 1:21 tells us plainly: "Thou shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

We don't tell people they are queers, whores, and thieves, we ask them have they ever lied, stolen, or looked with lust. Psalm 19:7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul." We must show people they have sinned against heaven, the same way:

1) Nathan did with David (adultery, murder)
2) Jesus did with the woman at the well (adultery)
3) Jesus did with the rich young ruler (idolatry, ie:love of money)
4) Paul did on Mars Hill (God commands all men everywhere to repent)

Please listen to Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret." I would write a book on this subject if it would convince you that convincing sinners of their sin is Biblical. Please listen to Comforts's message. It is that important.

Hal Bachman

 2005/7/5 3:08Profile

Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573


This is a very interesting topic. I used to be very into Ray Comfort's teachings. I still think he has a relevant message but I also think it has some flaws.

I felt that Galatians 3:24 was one of the most convincing verses in Comforts message. Yet in context I am not quite sure he has the best interpretation. I'm just not confident in it. In context, Paul is discussing the history of the people of God up until Christ. Then when faith came through Christ, and thereby justification by that means, we were no longer under a tutor (the Law). It seems that the example of the Gospels and Acts reveals that faith is the main issue now, not following sets of behavioral rules.

Now it's all about faith in the heart, and it seems that when genuine faith is established in the heart, right actions follow. I understand that repentence essentially means "to change the way you think." If this occurs, a change in action will follow.

I still think there might be some cases where the best thing to do is to confront someone with the Law for their own good so that they can realize their sin and their need for salvation. But I don't know how often this will be the case.

'The men that asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" were given the reply, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved." But what had these men that asked this question seen?'

They had seen the power of God. In fact, it was the open demonstration of the power of God that got them in jail in the first place (see 16:16-24). Paul cast a spirit of divination out of a slave girl who was making her masters money by fortune telling. So, it was the power of God that caused their imprisonment, and it was the power of God that got them out.

Clearly the jailers were frightened by God's awesome power in this instance for it says that one of them was "trembling with fear [and] fell down before Paul and Silas." But I maintain that it was the power of God, not the Law, that prepared these men for the Gospel. And I believe this is the best way to do it.

1 Cor. 2:4-5
"And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

Paul wanted his converts faith to rest on what?

The power of God.

I believe that this is the surest way to make a genuine convert. They must be exposed to the raw power of God, not just convincing words.

Even some of the examples sited (i.e. Nathan with David, Jesus with woman at the well, etc.) speak to me more of the power of God than the Law. Besides Nathan and David being in the Old Testament and therefore perhaps not as relevant to modern techniques, Nathan was speaking to David, a believer. So this is not an example of conversion, right? But it is also interesting to note that even here, it was the power of God (prophecy) that led David to repentence.

It's the same with the woman at the well. It wasn't like Jesus was just going through a formula with the woman trying to get her to see her sinfulness. He exposed her heart through the power of prophecy. This is very different than just interviewing her to find her sins. This shows her that God knows her and throughout this whole encounter you can see Jesus offering her something better, a better life, eternal, living water. How kindly He treated her.

Now, I'm sure that his exposing of her adultery convicted her as well, but I just want to point out the importance of the power of God at work too.

Also note that the Rich Young Ruler came to Jesus, Jesus didn't come to him. This changes the whole dynamic.

Also notice that Paul was taken by the philosophers and brought to the Areopagus and invited to speak.

These last two examples are in contrast to simply going up to people on the streets and confronting them. I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong, I think that might be fine, but I just want to point it out.

I've listened quite a bit to Comfort's teachings, I've also read his book "The Golden Key of Revival" (which I think used to be called "Hells Best Kept Secret), and observed his people at work on the streets of Santa Monica. And again, I think his message and philosphy on evangelism has some relevance, but I also think it has some flaws.

I guess my main contention is this. Comfort's teachings seem to promote confronting the lost with the Law, but leaves out the importance of the power of God to go along with it.

 2005/7/7 12:17Profile

Joined: 2005/6/14
Posts: 11
Bonham, TX


Who in this thread has listened to or watched Ray Comfort's message "Hell's Best Kept Secret"? If you haven't, then please do so here: mms://

When I watched Ray's message, it shook me to my core, and made me realize that I had made a false profession of faith when I 1st accepted Christ. This was because my motives in doing so were wrong.

Ray was concerned with the number of people who profess a faith in Christ and then within a years time fall away and leave their faith (over 90%) Ray took the time to study church growth and the evangelism methods used by our churches today. He then compared today's methods with those used by Spurgeon, Moody, & other evangelists from their era.

His work led him to the conclusion that these "backsliders" are leaving their faith because they are being preached a "man" centered gospel instead of a God centered Gospel. In other words,churches are telling those who are lost that believing in Christ will make their life better. When we should be telling them the truth, that they are sinners who are doomed to go to Hell unless they repent & accept Christ's payment for thier sins.

Ray uses a great example that I am going to share with you now:

The Bible says in Psalm 19, verse 7, “The law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul.” What is it that the Bible says is perfect and actually converts the soul? Why scripture makes it very clear: “The law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul.” Now to illustrate the function of God’s law, let’s just look for a moment at civil law.

Imagine if I said to you, “I’ve got some good news for you: someone has just paid a $25,000 speeding fine on your behalf.” You’d probably react by saying, “What are you talking about? That’s not good news: it doesn’t make sense. I don’t have a $25,000 speeding fine.” My good news wouldn’t be good news to you: it would seem foolishness. But more than that, it would be offensive to you, because I’m insinuating you’ve broken the law when you don’t think you have. However, if I put it this way, it may make more sense: “On the way to this meeting, the law clocked you at going 55 miles an hour through an area set aside for a blind children’s convention. There were ten clear warning signs stating that fifteen miles an hour was the maximum speed, but you went straight through at 55 miles an hour. What you did was extremely dangerous; there’s a $25,000 fine. The law was about to take its course, when someone you don’t even know stepped in and paid the fine for you. You are very fortunate.”

Can you see that telling you precisely what you’ve done wrong first actually makes the good news make
sense. If I don’t clearly bring instruction and understanding that you’ve violated the law, then the good news will seem foolishness; it will seem offensive. But once you understand that you’ve broken the law, then that good news will become good news indeed. Now in the same way, if I approach an impenitent sinner and say, “Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins,” it will be foolishness and offensive to him. Foolishness because it won’t make sense. The Bible says that:
“The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness” (1Cor. 1:18). And offensive because I’m insinuating he’s a sinner when he doesn’t think he is. As far as he’s concerned, there are a lot of people far worse than him. But if I take the time to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, it may make more sense. If I take the time to open up the divine law, the ten commandments, and show the sinner precisely what he’s done wrong, that he has offended God by violating His law, then when he becomes, as James says, “convinced of the law as a transgressor” (Jam. 2:9), the good news of the fine being paid for will not be foolishness, it will not be offensive, it will be “the power of God unto salvation” (Rom. 1:16).

- Ray Comfort "Hell's Best Kept Secret"

Now, let's look at an example from Scripture:

(John 4:5) Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

(John 4:6) Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.

(John 4:7) There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

(John 4:8) (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

(John 4:9) Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

(John 4:10) Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

(John 4:11) The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

(John 4:12) Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

(John 4:13) Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

(John 4:14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

(John 4:15) The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

(John 4:16) Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

(John 4:17) The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:

(John 4:18) For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

(John 4:19) The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

(John 4:20) Our fathers worshiped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

(John 4:21) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

(John 4:22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

(John 4:23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

(John 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(John 4:25) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

(John 4:26) Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

(John 4:27) And upon this came his disciples, and marveled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?

(John 4:28) The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,

(John 4:29) Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

(John 4:30) Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

Notice what Jesus did? He 1st revealed the Samaritan woman's sin, and then He showed her the need of a savior.


 2005/7/7 17:18Profile

Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia



You are obviously not a stranger to Scripture, and you didn't try to excommunicate me for my thread, so I must give thanks to you for your brotherly respect since you had an opportunity to blast me. Sometimes I've wondered if God intended for Christian brothers to discuss their differences of opinion, and work on their self-control. All this said, like Whitefield and Wesley, I must say, "No dear Sir, you mistake."

I will ask these questions, honestly looking for your personal opinion:

1) On September 10, 2001, God sends you to the World Trade Center to attempt to convert those who are headed for certain tragedy. Your message: the gospel of Jesus Christ. What do you say?

2) I have 2 minutes to live, tell me what I must do to be saved.

Hal Bachman

 2005/7/7 19:21Profile

Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573


I appreciate your spirit of peace here as well. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "No dear Sir, you mistake," but I'm assuming it means something like, "I don't agree with you."
Am I correct on that?

In response to your questions, I honestly don't know. Anything could happen.

 2005/7/7 20:23Profile

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