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 Controversial Subject

Hello Friends

I was thinking about something regarding sin, and how we as believers preach against sin etc..

I know fundementally it is taught that we are to preach against sin to the unbeliever, but what saith the scriptures?

Is it our place to preach against sin? Oh I know this is a hot topic, but I am bringing this up because I want to examine the scriptures more closely, if you don't mind.

I have observed Christians arguing with sinners over thier sin that that they want, is it our place to tell them they are doing wrong, or should we let them be?

I think we should let them be, Why you ask?, because Jesus said this to another crowd who were hardened towards the truth in His day:

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

Is it our place to keep beating a dead horse that will never acknowledge it's sin? I don't think so.

The reason why I do not believe this is right, even though we have been taught differently to do otherwise, is that we preach against sin to those who have been apprehended, namely you and I.

The sinner is preached Christ and Him crucified, NOT that he is a sinner.

When we step over into this realm of pointing the finger at sin to the sinner, we are in essence saying that the Holy Spirit is NOT doing His job.

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment".

The Holy Spirit is our helper, comforter and helpmeet, He works with us, or rather we work with Him. When we preach, Christ the holy Spirit convicts the sinner of his sin, and acknowledges with his own mouth that he is, but when we start naming sins, we are trying to create our own system of doing things. The churches are full of people who have felt guilty because they were "found out" but no real change has occured, no repentance, just a sorrow. I have had friends who were like this. They were preached that they were going to hell, Christ was not preached to them, it scared them because they thought they were going to hell and they started going to church. Later on as time progressed, they left.

Now, if we consider what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost.

He preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Peter mentions one thing that they did and that was that they crucified their Christ. He didn't say that some were queers, whores, or thieves, didn't mention anything like that, but the holy Spirit was convicting 5000 hearts at one moment (thats quite a crowd).

Another man by the name of Philip goes down to Samaria:

"Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and [b]preached Christ[/b] unto them". And,

"they went forth, and preached every where, the ,[b]Lord working with them[/b] and confirming the word with signs following."

Paul went everywhere preaching the same Christ:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."

Why isn't he preaching sin? Because sin is not the Good News nor is it glad tidings. Can we believe that the Holy Spirit can do His job, if we do ours?

We have heard the term coined, "the holy Spirit convicts the sinner of sin", then why don't we allow Him of that priviledge?

When we become believers then that message of sin is dealt with, we need to be preached at regarding this because sin has no place in the believers life, because his future is perfection:

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."

John and Jesus preached against sin in thier day because they came to the people of God. They were God's church, and God came to restore the faith by John and to launch a new beginning thru Christ.

"Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."


But when Christ died, all that changed, the Jew was no different then the gentile, they became just like the sinner:

"For [b]all[/b] have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

Now let me explain to you why I say this regarding Israel. In Romans 7

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."

When Christ came on the scene, Israel was an adultress.(Ezek23) God who was married to Israel loved Israel, but in order to set her free, He came in the person of Jesus Christ and died so that she no longer is an adultress even though she be married to another.

I said all that because I know that If I read that, the scripture that would come to mind would be:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid."

I beleive that we committed a great crime by presenting the world our dislike of sin and not presenting the Good News of Jesus Christ.

It's NOT the sins that are the issue. What was Christ doing on the cross?

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, [b]not imputing their trespasses unto them[/b] ; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

The above verse is the Gospel in a nut shell. God was restoring man back unto Himself so that He could write His laws in them and walk in them.

Can we believe that Christ made an end of sins? Seven things that Christ came and done when He came in His week:

"to 1finish the transgression, and to 2make an end of sins, and to 3make reconciliation for iniquity, and to 4bring in everlasting righteousness, and 5to seal up the vision and 6prophecy, and 7to anoint the most Holy."

Making and end of sins doesn't mean that people stop sinning, but rather that sin has been atoned for once for all.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

I know, many think that we are weak because we don't name sin to the sinner. Do you know who put the early church in jail?

It wasn't the local homosexual groups, or the ACLU, it was the religious bunch of that day who had influences with the government (this is why she was called an adultress).

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men"

Karl

 2005/4/15 20:53









 Re: Controversial Subject

If one does not realize that they are lost, it makes no sense at all to tell them they need a savior.

 2005/4/15 21:16









 Re: Lost and found

Brother Lahry

That is a good statement.

Sinners are lost, that is to say that they need a saviour to bring them into right fellowship with God. Again that is the Good News.

The sinner who hears the message will be convicted by the holy Ghost.

Not all get convicted to salvation, some get convicted only to be hardened.

Notice the difference between these two groups.

"When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Thanks Lahry

Karl

 2005/4/15 21:52
AndrewBruce
Member



Joined: 2005/4/12
Posts: 23
Blythewood, SC

 Re: Controversial Subject

Karl,
I agree with you completely we aren't to harp on an unbeliever's sin and tell them that they should change their ways. All we can do is tell them that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory and that the wages of their sin is death (a little Romans road there)and go from there. I don't expect an unbeliever to do what is right. Why should he? He has no reason to do what is right until God gets a hold of his heart.

Well put Karl!


_________________
Andrew Bruce

 2005/4/15 22:03Profile
geddingsm
Member



Joined: 2003/11/3
Posts: 61
south carolina

 Re: sin

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The purpose of the law is to make us see our sin. The preaching of salvation must begin with the law and then move into grace.
Usually the fault in modern preaching is it is all grace which leads to false converts or all law which leads to a bunch of convicted sinners and it usually doesn't take much to convice someone they are a sinner.
As for your posting, when Peter preached on Pentecost he was preaching to a bunch of Jews who already knew the law. When Phillip preached at Samaria they were aware of the law because they were "offshoots" of the Jews who the Jews considered "halfbreeds".

The most complete discription of Paul's preaching is:

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Notice he used the law and the prophets.

And when he talked to king Agrippa:

Acts 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

How would he convince Gentiles to repent except he showed them their sin through the use of the law?

yours in Christ,
geddingsm


_________________
marvin geddings

 2005/4/16 0:43Profile
Bomar
Member



Joined: 2005/2/8
Posts: 112


 Re:

Check out Hell's Best Kept Secret by Ray Comfort.

 2005/4/16 1:56Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

I am not usualy one to enter into contoversial conversations. :-)

But I am interested in this one. Some brethren and I did a study some time back in the book of acts. We looked at every single time the gospel was preached, wheter to an individual, a small group or a multitude. In each case we noted

1) who spoke
2)to whom (jew or gentile)
3)the message preached
4)Scriptures quoted (if any)
5)the results

I wont go into detail on our findings. But it is an excellent study for a group of believers to do together.

The understanding of some, that the law must be preached, before the gospel, doesn't seem to stand up in the light of the preaching of the book of acts.

A san aside, it is very interesting to note when and to whom Scriptures are quoted in the preaching of the gospel, there is a great deal of consistency in thiier use.

taco

 2005/4/16 6:53Profile









 Re: Holy Spirit is working with Paul

Geddings

What you have written is true, what you brought out is the same thing what the holy Spirit does, this is His work in the sinners heart before He confesses Christ.

I am taking an extraction from a verse in Romans. In Romans it is referring to something else, but it holds true to those who are considering the Gospel.

"Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts......"

When one hears the Good News that Christ came to bring man back into fellowship with God NOT imputing their transgressions (that is a mouthful), the holy Spirit is convicting them of sin, their conscience also bearing witness. They will either do two things, confess thier sins or be hardened, and it would be better if they didn't hear at all.

What Paul was doing in those meetings, was convincing that the law pointed to Christ, the prophets spoke of Christ and Paul would lift those verses out of the law that sat in obscurity and brought light to his listeners. Those who rejected it were crazy, a child could understand it.

When I first came into a relationship with our LORD Jesus Christ, I was reading the New Testement. No one taught me about sin or that I was a sinner, but I knew that something was wrong with me, I knew I needed a saviour, so I cried out to the LORD to save me.

Now this next verse is the cruncher, this to me tells me that Christ was a strong advocate of predestination. Watch this:

"Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
[b]He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.[/b]"

What an insult!

When a sinner hears God's word and receives them into his field that good ground, he is of God and heareth God.

Then there are those who don't hear God and they are not of God, but they are of thier father the devil. There were two types of seeds sown in the field, the good seed and the seed of the enemy.

"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

Thanks for that insight, I like them kind of posts when it makes us think about one thing, while giving us another thought to think about.

Karl

 2005/4/16 8:59









 Re: Findings

Taco wrote:

Quote:
I wont go into detail on our findings



Now Taco, why would you throw this teaser in here.

Do share your findings.

Karl

 2005/4/16 9:03
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
Now Taco, why would you throw this teaser in here.
Do share your findings.



Well, somone else PMd me requesting the same. I have the study notes/findings kept in a hardback notebook but don't (think I) have an electronic copy saved. But it is a very easy study to do either on your own or (recommended) with some other believers. I personaly think it would mean more for anyone who is interested to do it themselves, rather than just read a ready made report. You could read such a finding in 20 minutes and the tendancy would be to read it in light of what you already know/believe. But to study it out step by step, and prayerfuly, gives truth a chance to make itself known to you in a much more definite way.

 2005/4/16 16:37Profile





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