Poster | Thread | Rahman Member
Joined: 2004/3/24 Posts: 1374
| Andrew Strom says NO to the RC Church and JPII ... | |
RETHINKING the POPE?? -by Andrew Strom.
In the great outpouring of grief and eulogy that have accompanied the death of the Pope, there is something that disturbs me greatly. I hate to always be the one to "rain on the parade", but there are some pretty basic issues that I believe we need to look at here.
There is no doubt that the last pope was a man of very great accomplishments. He broke through many barriers and was truly one of the most effective leaders the Catholic Church has had in modern times. I don't think we can question that.
But what I would like to question is the organization that he was heading, and the 'gospel' that he represented. It truly disturbs me when I hear of Evangelical leaders praising his overall message and even calling him a 'great evangelist' or a 'great Christian leader'. Is the Reformation null and void, then? Shall we simply fold up our tents and go back to Rome?
There is something very disturbing in the reaction that has come from these quarters - including the 'prophets', the Pentecostals and the "Protestants" (so-called). It makes me very uneasy.
Much has been made of the estimated 100 million Catholics who have now been baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is certainly worth rejoicing over. But what of the other 900 million who are locked inside a system that preaches no "new birth" and no conversion - but rather salvation by works, rituals and the 'sacraments' of the church? Is such a "gospel" acceptable?
Is it acceptable to 'sprinkle' little babies and then tell them they are "saved" so long as they go to Mass and go to 'confession' and receive the other 'sacraments'? Is it acceptable to pray to Mary (the 'Queen of Heaven') or to the saints, or to ivory statues? Is it acceptable to call a man 'Holy Father'? Is it acceptable to forbid ministers from marrying, thus bringing about a deluge of sexual abuse and scandal? Is any part of the way the Catholic system is set up actually acceptable at all? Does any of it have even the slightest resemblance to the New Testament?
The fundamentals of Catholicism have not changed since Luther's day. The last pope altered little or none of these fundamentals. They have not changed since the Dark Ages. And they make up a system that is sending millions upon millions of people to an eternal Hell. They simply offer NO SALVATION WHATSOEVER. But what they do offer is a "counterfeit" version of salvation - that keeps millions in chains of darkness.
Go and visit Latin America sometime, and see the dark superstition that often passes for Catholicism in those countries. Watch as they parade their statues through the streets for the crowds to bow down to. This is no "Christianity" at all. And it holds MILLIONS in its sway.
We need to remember that when elected Pope in 1978, Karol Wojtyla dedicated his papacy to Mary and had words of devotion to her embroidered on his papal robes. In his 1994 autobiography he said: "During the Second World War, while I was employed as a factory worker, I came to be attracted to Marian devotion.... Mary is the new Eve, placed by God in relation to Christ, the new Adam." John Paul II venerated Mary on every occasion, private and public. It was his custom to pray the Rosary before an image of Mary on the first Saturday of every month. He continually exalted Mary in his sermons. We are told that on his trip to Latin America in 1996 he "ended every speech by exalting Mary" (Christianity Today, April 8, 1996, p. 94).
I knew an intercessor in New Zealand who was an ex-Catholic. She was one of the most anti-Catholic people that I knew. Why? Because she spent over 20 years of her life brought up in that system - diligently seeking God. Going to Mass, saying the 'Rosary', going to confession and so-on. And she was in complete spiritual DARKNESS unitl she came out and embraced the true gospel. If she was still in there she would probably be UNSAVED STILL.
I am sorry to have to be the one to point out all of this. But why is it that the current crop of leaders seem so willing to give up 500 years of Reformation truth in order to be "politically-correct" and find "unity" with the Catholic system? I received the following email last week, which helps bring all of this into focus:
(From an Ex-catholic priest):
When a man bows before an idol of ivory, begging for salvation, and you tell him it cannot answer - is this hate?
When someone's little girl...must tell her thoughts, her emotions and temptations to an unmarried priest in the confession box, and you tell her she need only confess to Jesus - is this hate?
When a poor grieving widow pays from her meagre substance for Masses for her dead husband, desperately hoping to end his pain in purgatory, and you tell her there is no purgatory - is this hate?
When one billion souls, for whom Christ died, trust a well-fed pontiff dressed in gold and fine linen to give them the keys to Heaven, and you tell them they need no one but Jesus - is this hate?
When Jesus, God's gift of love to all mankind, pointed his finger at the Pharisees and called them so many snakes - was this hate?
When the Apostle Paul stood on Mars Hill and dared tell the philosophers of pagan mystery religion that they were too superstitious - was this hate?
NO!
To free a man from Satan's chains, you must first tell him he is a prisoner. You must convince him that he is lost and without hope... There are those who call [evangelical] literature "hate literature." But they do not know the true meaning of hate.
True hatred hides the gospel in beautiful words that upset no one, and therefore bring no conviction of sin. True hatred stands in selfish silence as hell's population grows.
God bless you, my friends.
-Andrew Strom.
... i agree!
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| 2005/4/13 16:58 | Profile | RobertW Member
Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: Andrew Strom says NO to the RC Church and JPII ... | | I must say I agree here. I visited in 2001 the Loretto Chapel in New Mexico wanting to see the notorious spiral staircase. I had never been in a Catholic church. The staircase was neat, but when you turn around there were all these images that greatly disturbed my spirit.
Their doctrine is wildly off. The reformation was a God ordained phenomena and we cannot surrender the advancements of that. I am not bashing Catholic's here. We have to stand our ground.
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/4/13 17:08 | Profile | sermonindex Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11 Posts: 39795 Canada
Online! | Re: | | Quote:
Much has been made of the estimated 100 million Catholics who have now been baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is certainly worth rejoicing over. But what of the other 900 million who are locked inside a system that preaches no "new birth" and no conversion - but rather salvation by works, rituals and the 'sacraments' of the church? Is such a "gospel" acceptable?
I do agree with this above quote.. where there is NO new birth preached we have to be very weary. _________________ SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| 2005/4/13 19:53 | Profile | moreofHim Member
Joined: 2003/10/15 Posts: 1632
| Re: replys to pope article | | *Edit below*
NOTE: Below are some of the more interesting and insightful responses we got on the subject of the POPE and CATHOLICISM: ----------------------------------------------------
DR writes: Ive been stunned over the past few days following the death of Pope John Paul II by the overwhelming outpouring of praise for his life and legacy. Both Evangelicals as well as one prominent Charismatic leader have expressed their remorse at his passing.
What has shocked me the most is the way they have spoken about him. One Charismatic leader refers to him as, and I quote, A true Saint, The most remarkable leader of our time, a man of God, a leader who blessed and advanced the whole Church and indeed, the cause of Christianity itself and one of the greatest men of God of our time. -------------------------------------------------- Len Carter writes: I was raised a Roman Catholic and when I was saved (a powerful 'on the road to Damascus' type of salvation) I realized that the teaching that I had grown-up under all of my life was not merely flawed... it was false!..... I was not merely exposed to Roman Catholicism, I was deeply entrenched in the culture and life of Roman Catholicism and I can assure you that it is nothing more and nothing less than a teaching of "salvation by works and ritual observances". -------------------------------- Claire Gidman writes: In reading the pope's last will and testiment, I was so disappointed to see that he placed his life, death, country, Church and world in the hands of Mary, Mother of God! This man had the ear of the world and it just saddened me that he could not leave to the world the message of knowing Christ as Lord and Savior. ------------------------------------------------- Don Hawley writes:
You have lived to see a marvel in your own lifetime. Via television you witnessed millions of people traveling to a single city, Rome, to pay obeisance to a single man, Pope John II.
This vast crowd included presidents, kings, religious leaders, Muslims, Jews, and Orthodox priests. For each person present in Rome, there were multitudes back home equally in awe. Never before has the world seen such an outpouring of respect and admiration.
As I say, this is a marvel. But perhaps an even greater marvel, is that the person receiving all this adulation heads up an organization responsible for the torture and murder of millions of people.... Many are simply unaware of this dark chapter of history, while others consider it impolite to dig up the past. However, to ignore history may be to invite its repetition.... The noted historian Will Durant observed: "Compared with the persecution of heresy in Europe from 1227 to 1492, the persecution of Christians by Romans in the first three centuries after Christ was a mild inhumane procedure."
The Demise of Protestantism: The name Protestantism derives from the word "protest." The great reformers and martyrs of the past were "protesters" against the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church. Many of them, along with millions of ordinary laypeople, died for taking such a stand.
The United States of America has long been known as a Protestant nation, but that title can no longer be claimed in honesty. On March 29, 1994, leading American Evangelicals and Catholics signed a joint declaration titled "Evangelicals and Catholics Together." For all practical purposes, Protestantism died that day.
The New York Times announced, "In what's being called a historic declaration, Evangelicals including Pat Robertson and Charles Colson [one of the chief originators], joined with conservative Roman Catholic leaders today in upholding the ties of faith that bind the nation's largest and most politically active religious groups." Other evangelical endorsers included leaders from the Southern Baptist Convention, Bill Bright, Mark Noll, Jesse Miranda, J.I. Packer, Os Guinness and Herbert Schlossberg.
Other non-Catholic religious leaders have expressed similar leanings: "I don't know anyone more dedicated to the great fundamental doctrines of Christianity than the Catholics." -- W.A. Criswell, former President - Southern Baptist Convention.
"I've found that my beliefs are essentially the same as those of orthodox Roman Catholics." -- Billy Graham.
Robert Schuller stated that he didn't want to dedicate his Glass Cathedral until he traveled to Rome and received the special blessing of the Pope.
The Heart of the Matter: Verbose as the 1994 declaration may have been, it conveniently ignored the very heart of the matter - what it means to be a Christian. This compromise of the gospel lies at the heart of the agreement.
America is now post-Protestant, and a frightening new conglomerate is forming. Yes, you have seen a marvel in Rome during these past few days, but the near future holds even more startling developments. Ernest Christians need to understand the times.
Soon it will be dangerous to one's physical well-being to write articles like this. ------------------------------- Chris and Erika Hamby write: In 1870 the church pronounced the doctrine of papal infallibility AND she has pronounced the doctrine of the 'immaculate conception' and also the doctrine of the 'assumption of Mary' so that the Catholic church today is actually doctrinally WORSE than in Luthers day. ---------------------------------- Donna Martonfi writes: I am an ex-Catholic (now an evangelist) and I am astounded at how many in the evangelical community are singing the praises of this pope. Many 'immature Christians' are weeping and grieving the passing of this pope! There is MUCH deception in the Body of Christ and somebody somewhere has got to tell them.... -------------------------------------------
M.R writes: .... I have since become a Catholic, a born again Charismatic Catholic and am happy to be one. But my concern with the pope is not the part of the Catholic church that is fading away - all that you mentioned in your letter, but what you didn't mention. Like the pope ordaining as a priest a Voodoo witch doctor still praciticing his craft. His explanation? As I under- stand it he said that since this witch doctor was coming under his authority as the head of the Catholic church, the witch doctor was a Christian in full communion with Rome and therefore with God. (My loose paraphrasing, I know, but that is my understanding of what was said.)
Or what about the meeting he headed a few Decembers ago when all of the religions of the world signed a covenant together officially forming a united organization of religions? Or what about the World Day of Peace he had in Assissi, where he had all of the leaders of the world's religions meet to pray and make proclamations of peace as a response to what happened on 9-11. He sat himself in the middle of a platform a little to the right. The leaders of the Christian denominations were all seated to the left... When each came to the podium from further to the left than the pope was sitting, they each bowed to the pope before speaking, except the leader of the "African Native Religion".
I'm sorry, but this is what REALLY scares me about him and his leadership!.... moving to the one world church....... ----------------------------------
Edit: wanted to make sure that people know that this came from Andrew Stroms list. Sorry about that. :-( _________________ Chanin
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| 2005/4/14 17:16 | Profile | sermonindex Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11 Posts: 39795 Canada
Online! | Re: | | Quote:
NOTE: Below are some of the more interesting and insightful responses we got on the subject of the POPE and CATHOLICISM:
Thank you for sharing this Chanin!~
"The name Protestantism derives from the word "protest." The great reformers and martyrs of the past were "protesters" against the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church. Many of them, along with [b]millions[/b] of ordinary laypeople, [b]died[/b] for taking such a stand.
Yes millions died as heretics believing in basic tenets of what the Bible teaches, namely, Saved by Grace and not by works (catholic church induldgences), the person and work of the Holy Spirit, etc...
_________________ SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| 2005/4/14 17:21 | Profile |
| Re: Protesters can still honor and love people. | | I hate to stir up more debate on this subject, but I have to make a comment.
While i don't pretend to know more than Andrew Strom, something about his statement (and those of the others) bothers me.
I am a Protestant. I am a Protester. I think it is TRAGIC that so many are misled by the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church...thousands perish without Christ for ignorance. That grieves me...and I long for the Gospel to be preached within the walls of the Catholic Church. BUT...
I do not see why we can not honor a man who loved his Lord. While he was most definitely misled he certainly loved his Lord and he certainly did his best to change the world of his day...however mistaken he may be we can honor his love for God and we can respect him for his efforts to honor and glorify God.
I think the zealous and 'prophets' make this mistake often...they take their zeal for truth and target people. That is just plain wrong. I am very zealous for truth, but I get very worried when zeal makes me angry at people...
I go to seminary with a professor who is one of the leading proponents of a modern 'heresy'...yet this man knows and loves Jesus as his Lord. I have had the chance to get to know this man a little, and while i vehemently disagree with him i deeply respect his intimacy with God - he deeply loves his God.
Now I can disagree with this man while also honoring him and loving him and respecting his zeal.
I don't agree (in fact VERY vehemently disagree with them at times) with Calvinists but I can have fellowship them and acknowlege and respect their walk with God...however mistaken I may think they are.
I think we are on dangerous ground when we take our zeal for the truth and target people. I believe its simply anger that is driving this kind of attitude. Love does NOT forbid us from respecting and honoring people.
I for one am grateful for the life of the Pope...in spite of his errors. I wish he had presented the gospel as it should be...but i respect his love for God and I honor him.
Let's be VERY careful that our zeal for the truth does not become angry and spiteful. Let's be very careful that in our zeal for the truth we do not forget the heart of Christianity: LOVE! Let's continue to fight false doctrines...but let's also be known for our love. The two need not be a dichotomy...unfortunately many make it so.
Your brother in Christ,
Stephen |
| 2005/4/16 16:23 | |
| Re: | | Quote:
I do not see why we can not honor a man who loved his Lord. While he was most definitely misled he certainly loved his Lord and he certainly did his best to change the world of his day...however mistaken he may be we can honor his love for God and we can respect him for his efforts to honor and glorify God.
He was a good humantarian.
But he did not love the Living God, the God of the Bible. He loved a Catholic god, which is no god at all... and he went to his grave professing belief in a false religion and a false god. Therefore, he is in hell.
Read Revelation 17 (which is about the RCC) and see how God hates the Great Whore.
Why praise a man who was the head of a false religion? That makes about as much sense as praising Jim Jones.
Krispy |
| 2005/4/16 16:51 | |
| Re: Lord Mary | | Steven Wrote:
Quote:
I do not see why we can not honor a man who loved his Lord. While he was most definitely misled he certainly loved his Lord and he certainly did his best to change the world of his day...however mistaken he may be we can honor his love for God and we can respect him for his efforts to honor and glorify God.
Steven, his Lord and god was Mary. Not Jesus.
I remember hearing from Mother Angelica on EWTN (Eternal Word Television Network) I was floored when she ended her prayer, "in the name of Jesus and Mary".
Mary is more than honoured in the Catholic Church she is venerated as god. Mary is not the mother of God, she is the mother of the body of Jesus Christ. She was the HOST for the GHOST.
Andrew Strom needs to send that letter to every protestant leader all over the world to help them snap out of whatever their on.
Karl |
| 2005/4/16 16:54 | |
| Re: | | Quote:
But he did not love the Living God, the God of the Bible. He loved a Catholic god, which is no god at all... and he went to his grave professing belief in a false religion and a false god. Therefore, he is in hell.
That is rather presumptuous of you. Oh be careful what you say about things you do not know...be very careful.
Quote:
Steven, his Lord and god was Mary. Not Jesus.
I think you've misunderstood him.
Quote:
Andrew Strom needs to send that letter to every protestant leader all over the world to help them snap out of whatever their on.
Is that a way to speak about our leaders? Again - I see no love in any of this.
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| 2005/4/16 17:26 | |
| Re: | | Quote:
Read Revelation 17 (which is about the RCC) and see how God hates the Great Whore.
First, i do not know how you conclude that the RCC is the 'Great Whore'. Second, God does not hate anyone. People hate...and that's exactly what i'm concerned about. Sometimes we almost sound as though we want people to go to Hell - heaven forbid!! God is LOVE.
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| 2005/4/16 17:30 | |
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