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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is this something to be concerned about?

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 Is this something to be concerned about?

For quite some time I have been involved in a blog dialogue with a certain brother. The brother is a respected, retired US Army Colonel. He carries much weight in certain circles of the evangelical community. On con calls the brother has useful information which I have found to be beneficial in praying for the persecuted church.

But the brother is in the Hebrew roots movement. Though  not being Jewish himself, he and his family have embraced a messianic lifestyle. For sure he has the freedom in Christ to do this. And if this were his own individual choice that would be fine. But the brother is now pushing is messianic lifestyle on to other believers via a national con call. Bottom line the brother believes that to obey Christ one must be under the Mosaic Covenant.

Saints please understand I am not talking about merely obeying the Ten Commandments. But the WHOLE Mosaic code. This brother believes the whole Torah is binding on New Covenant believers. Thus the Jewish feasts are to be observed by by all who are in Jesus.

The brother has not gone to the point of saying you must be saved by keeping the law. But his position of putting New Covenant believers under the Torah is very disturbing.

In attempting to reason with the brother from the New Testament, particularly from Paul's letters, the verses I have brought to the table have been explained away. The brother will often say that had some things that are hard to understand. He will say one has to be in the Hebrew roots to truly understand Paul.

Saints unless I miss sonething here I believe this is what Paul warned us about in Galatians. But am I over reacting. Seeking thoughts from the forum.

Blaine Scogin

 2014/4/30 18:56
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: Is this something to be concerned about?



"He will say one has to be in the Hebrew roots to truly understand Paul."

I am not in the Hebrew roots, yet I am persuaded I understand Paul here, as he exhorts the brethren to shun such persons as this man of whom you speak.

But I beseech you, brethren, to keep a watch on those who are causing the divisions among you, and are leading others into sin, in defiance of the instruction which you have received; and habitually to shun them. For men of that stamp are not bondservants of Christ our Lord, but are slaves to their own appetites; and by their plausible words and their flattery they utterly deceive the minds of the simple. Paul to the Romans 16:17,18

Is this something to be concerned about?

You already know it in your spirit!

Do as Paul commands in faithfulness to Messiah and His Gospel!

 2014/4/30 20:01Profile
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re: Is this something to be concerned about?

quoted from bearmaster: "The brother will often say that had some things that are hard to understand. He will say one has to be in the Hebrew roots to truly understand Paul."

Hi Blaine,

It is precisely the two points quoted above that I find used over and over again to try to justify what pretty much is modern day judaizing: brushing off important verses from scripture with "it is too difficult or ambiguous to understand fully" and "you have to be Jewish or be familiar with Jewish culture and history to really understand the Bible and Jesus" which I believe are absolutely misleading and have placed many on the slippery slope toward error. (now I am not saying that there is no benefit to studying Jewish culture, but what I am saying is that it takes quite a distant second if not third in place of scripture). If both cases were true, then one would have to say it isn't the Bible which is sufficient, but the Bible plus Jewish culture/history. But this leaves us with a huge problem, which Jewish tradition and myth will one look to as a starting point? Jewish culture has changed and gone through many contortions through history, whereas the Bible has not. It is absolutely clear, we are actually instructed not to look to Jewish tradition and myths but rather the Word of God:

10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
Titus 1:10-16

But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
Titus 2:1


Also, if the two points were true, then one would have to say that evangelism and mission work has been completely erroneous for the past I don't even know how many years, because according to their argument (whether they realize the implications or not), one has to teach Jewish culture along with the gospel in order to properly train up disciples of Christ, which I believe to be ABSOLUTELY WRONG. I don't know how any honest believer can say that Paul's writings regarding the feasts, etc. isn't clear enough to conclude that we are set free from the Mosaic Covenant.

A verse that comes to mind that clearly demonstrates this:

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Ephesians 2:13-16

The key verse being: "by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances"

And two key words: "Abolish" and "Ordinance"

According to strong's concordance:

Abolish:

to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
to deprive of force, influence, power
to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
to cease, to pass away, be done away
to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one


Ordinance:

the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment


We actually undermine the very power and value of the gospel when we begin to think that Jewish ways and persons are somehow more superior to others, which is sadly what many believers fall into thinking that God loves Jews more than gentiles. He loves ALL EQUALLY (Jew and gentile) and thus died for ALL on the cross to make us ONE by breaking down the wall of hostility that once existed through the ordinances (Jewish customs and cultural laws, which include the feasts).

But sadly, deceptions are sure to come as scripture says, particularly in these last days, and they are just going to get worse and more deceptive to lead MANY astray. Many old heresies and false teachings are just being remasked and made more palatable for the contemporary church that seeks a spiritual experience and fellowship with God apart from His Word...sigh...my heart aches to see how things will progress as we get closer to the final hour...


_________________
Will

 2014/4/30 20:20Profile
RogerB
Member



Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 267
Bruceton TN

 Re: Torah

We must look at the ten lepers. All told to go and pay what Moses required. All started away, but the Samaritan turned and came back and gave thanks. As he was walking he realized, Hey, I can't go down to pay what Moses required. They won't let me in.

And so it is, A gentile cannot keep the old festival, etc. because they are not for him. The Jews and the law won't let him in to the area he needs to be in.


_________________
James R Barnes

 2014/4/30 20:42Profile









 Re:

Brothers thank you for your time in posting. I do believe the brother to be in very serious error. Thus I must speak the truth to him in love about his error. But I feel he will politely blow off what I have to say. Yet I must speak out on this. Please keep me in prayer.

Blaine

 2014/4/30 21:05
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: Is this something to be concerned about?

Quote:
bearmaster wrote:
Saints please understand I am not talking about merely obeying the Ten Commandments. But the WHOLE Mosaic code. This brother believes the whole Torah is binding on New Covenant believers. Thus the Jewish feasts are to be observed by by all who are in Jesus.

The brother has not gone to the point of saying you must be saved by keeping the law. But his position of putting New Covenant believers under the Torah is very disturbing.


And this is why Art Katz never got fully involved in the Messianic Movement even though they wanted (and needed) him to be their poster child.

This is just my understanding of what I heard him preach a few years ago. (And amen to everyone’s answers!)

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2014/5/1 8:48Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: Bibles with the book of Galatians ripped out

At the judgement, the Lord will ask: "And I appointed feasts but you did not attend..."

Uhhhh... No.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/5/1 16:48Profile
RogerB
Member



Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 267
Bruceton TN

 Re: The old System

The WCG did this years ago and today all it's spin offs still do. We must still love our brother, he is on a path too.
Do they practice stoning? Do they keep 2 tithes? One for the
festival and one for the Levites? They are modernizing the
old covennat.


_________________
James R Barnes

 2014/5/1 18:17Profile









 Re:

I have heard there are those in the Messianic movement that would line to see Gatians and Hebrews ripped out if the Bible. Well for that matter maybe the New Testament itself.

Those in the Hebrew roots movement do nit acknowledge two covenants. Somehow to them the New Covenant is an extension of the Old Covenant.

Blaine

 2014/5/1 20:41









 Re:

Tbounds2,

Very good insight out of Strongs. Puts the whole law matter to rest Thank you fir sharing.

Blaine

 2014/5/1 20:46





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