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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Were the Scottish Covenanters right?

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 Were the Scottish Covenanters right?

A dear brother recommended some videos featuring the Scottish Covenanters. The brother shared with me how these saints suffered for their faith. I was intrigued having heard about the Covenanters but knowing little about them.

I watched the videos and there is no denying the saints suffered for their faith in Christ. But a question came to my mind was how some of these brethren were martyred for caring the temporal sword. As I watched the videos I got the impression the Scottish brethren were not adverse to carrying two swords. One sword was of course the Bible. The other was a Scottish broadsword the fight the English who were imposing there will on Scotland. More specifically to fight the English that were persecuting the Scottish church.

The narrator said toleration is good. But one must be prepared to take up the temporal sword to resist evil. More specifically to take up the temporal sword to resist persecution.

Unlike the Anabaotists, the Scottish Covenanters did not justify their position from the teachings of Christ. But being the Calvinists they were went to the Old Testament to justify their position and taking up temporal arms to resist persecution.

I find this attitude to prevail even among evangelical and Calvinistic brothers today. That we must arm with temporal weapons to resist persecution by the state.

Where the Scottish Covenanters right to take up the sword to resist persecution? Are we called to arm today with an AR 15 and a Glock 45 to resist persecution?

Please note my question is NOT dealing with having a weapon for home defense. I am asking are we to take up weapons to resist government persecution? More specifically are we to pick up temporal weapons to resist persecution for the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Bearmaster.

 2014/4/27 13:37









 Re: Were the Scottish Covenanters right?

what is the early church example with government?

 2014/4/27 15:26
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: Were the Scottish Covenanters right?

I am intrigued by the way the passage in 1Peter is worded, how we are to submit to governing authorities who are sent to reward good and punish evil behavior. One does not need to look too far to see governing authorities who don't qualify for receiving the respect of this passage.

Governments whose aim and mission is to subjugate people by force, kill off the ones who cause trouble or cannot contribute to the revenue stream, seem to me to be subject to removal by force.

When the children of Israel were commanded to completely kill off some of their enemies but did not obey, they suffered the consequence. Those same enemies came back with a vengeance doing harm that would not have occured if they had been killed according to the original command.

God's command...

The world is full of problems country by country, state by state, village by village, family by family. These problems will never be solved by war, though it seems reasonable at the time. Rather we will be blessed by obeying God.

I am not quite ready to agree to violent revolution as obedience to God, but there are many who have crossed into that kind of thinking. That said, I can certainly see how a revolution is imminent as society collapses. Hard to imagine a world plunging headlong into debt can avoid it.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/4/27 15:28Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re: Were the Scottish Covenanters right?

Greetings Bear

My answer to you would be no we are not called to take up arms to resist government persecution. There was persecution happening in Paul and Peter's time do we read anywhere that they called people to arm themselves and resist??

God bless
maryjane

 2014/4/27 15:42Profile









 Re:

Noah in my reading if the New Testamen the early church submitted to the governing authorities provided this submission did not conflict with the gospel. I do not see the early Christians were called to arm and resist persecution.

Bearmaster.

 2014/4/27 16:03









 Re:

Mary Jane as I indicated to Noah we do not see the early Christians taking up arms to resist persecution.

Bear.

 2014/4/27 16:04









 Re:

Sidewalk your post is thought provoking. No doubt there are going to revolution against government. Some revolutions even being led by Christians. I think the American Revolution was one. And being in the South there were those God fearing Christians who resisted the Waar of Naarthern Agression to defend so called states rights. Call it for what it is. The God fearing Christians of the South were fighting against the North to defend southern slavery.

I believe it was Solomon who said there is nothing new under the sun

My thoughts of course.

Bear.

 2014/4/27 16:13









 Re:

MaryJane,

I wouldn't know how to justify taking up arms/weapons then.

I'm glad for examples of spirit filled people strengthened to endure whatever God puts them through.

 2014/4/27 16:47
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: Taking up arms

During the Vietnam conflict, the war of my day, I recall long sessions of conversations over coffee discussing the morality of war, and the obligations of men to defend others, blah, blah, blah. When I got the "Greetings" letter, things began to change and refocus. I asked my draft board for classification as a conscientious objector, knowing that the Viet Cong were not invading Minnesota... yet.

But I did go into the army rather than run or go to jail, and was sent to Viet nam. Still, I did not carry a rifle and no one gave me grief about that- as a medic I was able to carry more medical supplies in place of the weapon and ammo.

But to make this story closer to the topic, there came a day when I was in a very intense firefight, and suddenly my life and the other men with me were in real danger. I was being shot at, and though I had nothing personal against the people shooting at me I found myself very willing to shoot and kill them. For several long minutes I was lying on the ground in a jungle 13,000 miles from home, holding an M-16 set to full automatic, looking for a head to blow off while the sergeant (whose gun this was) crawled out in front of me to pull a man to safety.

Things come down to immediate concern, sometimes to a split-second decision, to a situation you never really saw coming. You will act on instinct, use what you have, do what needs to be done- whether you are "prayed-up" or not.

Right now we are watching things unfold, hopefully with enough wisdom to pray Godly energy into whatever God is doing among the worldwide scatter of men. Ukraine is on the brink, Syria is a cauldron of violence, Iran will soon be an aggressive nuclear power, North Korea is ready to go way out of control, Afghanistan is falling back under crazy Taliban control, on and on. We can't physically stop any of it, but our prayers are instantaneous to the good of those who are called into God's purposes.

My feeling is a little like the strange way Jesus told the disciples to get a sword. Peter said, "OK, I got one!"

Jesus said it was enough. No further instructions of what to do with it, and no record that the sword served a major purpose in building the early church.

So also today- "Got an AR-15?" Good. It is enough.

If there is a time in the future when it is appropriate to use in a Godly way, you will be ready. But call number one is prayer where real power comes to meet and defeat the powers of darkness.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/4/27 16:52Profile









 Re:

Sidewalk I think we are close in age. I remember Vietnam. I had to register for the draft I was classified as 4-F because of my eyes. It would not do me any good to have a weapon in my house as I would be more of a danger to.myself than an intruder.

You are right about the world falling into evil. I agree that prayer is always that which restrains evil. This is why Persecution Watch was birthed as we pray for the persecuted church and the conversion of the persecutors.

I get the impression the Scottish Covenanters were not doing this as they seemed more keen to.pick up the temporal sword to resist persecution.

I would say to my Calvinistic and evangelical brethren who want to arm to resist persecution, what has been witness of the followers of Jesus? One would be hard pressed to see them picking up arns to resist persecution.

Bear.

 2014/4/27 17:17





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