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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Question For Those Who Believe In Eternal Conscious Punishment

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Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 600
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

Quote:
by ADisciple on 2014/4/21 18:12:05

Narrowpath said: "Only a conscious act of wilful ignorance towards scripture can lead to the view that hell is not eternal."

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14).



A puddle of eternal torment is cast into a lake of eternal torment where there is more room for more torment.

This in no way hints of and end of the place of eternal torment called hell ... just a relocation.

Where the first death put sinners in hell (Luke 16), the second death transfers all of hell to the lake of fire.



1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.


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Michael Strickland

 2014/4/22 10:35Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5255
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "When we read 2 Thess. 1:9, if someone can definitively explain when "everlasting" ends, I will consider whether the Bible teaches annihilation. But, taking the plain text speaking for itself, I am going to stay with everlasting means everlasting."

Yes-- but what does everlasting DESTRUCTION mean? That is what the verse says.

If a person is annihilated(destroyed) it will last forever. There's no coming back.

Some of you are arguing that presenting anything other than eternal torture to unbelievers makes it less likely they will repent. My response is that if they are repenting out of mere self-interest then the repentance never took place. The basis of repentance is that the supreme ruler of the universe(Jesus) commands it. It is for HIS sake that man must repent, not their own. Avoiding punishment is only a secondary benefit.

By the way, the other two views both include torment and punishment. The only issue is whether it lasts forever and ever. After all, a million years of torture would be no picnic.


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Todd

 2014/4/22 11:10Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5255
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "This in no way hints of and end of the place of eternal torment called hell ... just a relocation.

Where the first death put sinners in hell (Luke 16), the second death transfers all of hell to the lake of fire."

Talk about jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire....

I guess hell isn't eternal enough. It has to be tossed into the LOF to make it super hot and super eternal.

All of this seems to be such a moot point to me because believers are not going into any hell of any kind. And we shouldn't be evangelizing using scare tactics because any "conversion" using this tactic is going to be false or very suspect at minimum.


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Todd

 2014/4/22 11:22Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

Oracio,

"we know that we cannot fellowship with JWs or Mormons because they deny certain key doctrines we deem to be essential to fellowship or ministry together."

We cannot fellowship with them because they are unbelievers and cults. There is no regeneration, no quickened spirit, and especially no belief in Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

When we are talking about fellowship with one another, we are talking about people who are born again, in whom the Spirit of the living God resides. The only time we break fellowship with a believer is because of unrepentant sin in their lives and only after much edification and correction.

Matthew 18 shows how this is to be done.

I do not believe it can be done via internet forum, but in the local church.

Now, does questionable doctrine count as unrepentant sin? I really think only if it causes sin. Denying the deity of Jesus Christ will result in all kinds of immorality and the preaching of some foreign, unsaving "gospel." The denial of justification by faith will breed works-based righteousness and utterly destroy the effectiveness of the atoning work of Jesus Christ. However, saying that heaven doesn't really have streets made of gold, but that it is just symbolic of the glory of the place would not cause any sort of sin.

A denial of an eternal conscious hell, depending on whether or not you take it as far as Rob Bell did, will breed a de facto denial of the necessity of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, which in turn breeds all manner of "allowable" sins, turning the grace of God into an excuse for all kinds of immorality. Then, the only motivation for acting righteously will be nothing more than that which the culture has established. BAM. No you have liberal-emergent theology which turns into liberal-emergent living.

 2014/4/22 11:23Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 600
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

Quote:
by TMK on 2014/4/22 11:10:40

Quote: "When we read 2 Thess. 1:9, if someone can definitively explain when "everlasting" ends, I will consider whether the Bible teaches annihilation. But, taking the plain text speaking for itself, I am going to stay with everlasting means everlasting."

Yes-- but what does everlasting DESTRUCTION mean? That is what the verse says.



All you have to do is look up the definition:

G3639
ὄλεθρος
olethros
ol'-eth-ros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

2Ts 1:9 WhoG3748 shall be punishedG5099 G1349 with everlastingG166 destructionG3639 fromG575 the presenceG4383 of theG3588 Lord,G2962 andG2532 fromG575 theG3588 gloryG1391 of hisG846 power;G2479


What would "a prolonged form" mean?

And that coupled with the word everlasting:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION = PERPETUAL RUIN

Regardless of your personal doubts of the motives in conversions of people who were given the truth regarding eternal punishment when evangelized, the FRUIT of such conversions by the thousands and millions throughout Christian history knocks your petty argument down to insanity.


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Michael Strickland

 2014/4/22 11:44Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5255
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "A denial of an eternal conscious hell, depending on whether or not you take it as far as Rob Bell did, will breed a de facto denial of the necessity of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice..."

But neither proponents of conditional immortality(annihilation) nor universal reconciliation denies the necessity of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

Your statement is a straw man that has been used over and over again in this forum. The ONLY WAY to the Father is through Jesus Christ.

Of course there may be ultra liberal types like Unitarians that say there's no hell and everybody's going straight to heaven but that is not what we are talking about here-- at least that is not what I am talking about.


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Todd

 2014/4/22 12:30Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

By havok20x

Quote:
A denial of an eternal conscious hell, depending on whether or not you take it as far as Rob Bell did, will breed a de facto denial of the necessity of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, which in turn breeds all manner of "allowable" sins, turning the grace of God into an excuse for all kinds of immorality. Then, the only motivation for acting righteously will be nothing more than that which the culture has established. BAM. No you have liberal-emergent theology which turns into liberal-emergent living.


I think you hit on something very important regarding Christ’s sacrifice and the holiness of God. Others who have posted have also made really good points on the danger of devaluing the sacrifice of Christ. This thing of devaluing the holiness of God could also be a serious danger. It would seem to me that if we believe in anything less than an eternal conscious punishment for unrepentant sinners, we may make God out to be less holy, less concerned with sin than He actually is. We may end up believing in a different god and different Jesus altogether, one we are more comfortable with, one we can snuggle up and cuddle with.

If hell torments were to last a million years, would Christ have to go through all He went through, from leaving His glorious throne and becoming a man to the horrific agony of gethsemane, and finally hanging on the cross and experiencing the ultimate wrath and curse of God for our sins?


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Oracio

 2014/4/22 12:30Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5255
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION = PERPETUAL RUIN"

Indeed. If anything is perpetual ruin, annihilation is. And "ainios" does not have to mean eternal or everlasting although it can mean that.


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Todd

 2014/4/22 12:34Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 600
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

Quote:
by TMK on 2014/4/22 12:34:36

Quote: "EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION = PERPETUAL RUIN"

Indeed. If anything is perpetual ruin, annihilation is. And "ainios" does not have to mean eternal or everlasting although it can mean that.



TMK, do you lift yourself and your scholarly knowledge of the definitions of terms above all of the translators of the Bible?

You say "does not have to mean eternal or everlasting although it can mean that." Why would it get translated that way 67 of the 71 times that it was translated in the KJV?

In the KJV, this is how the term αἰώνιος
aiōnios was translated:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Total KJV Occurrences: 71
eternal, 42
Mat_19:16, Mat_25:46, Mar_3:29, Mar_10:17, Mar_10:30, Luk_10:25, Luk_18:18, Joh_3:15, Joh_4:36, Joh_5:39, Joh_6:54, Joh_6:68, Joh_10:28, Joh_12:25, Joh_17:2-3 (2), Act_13:48, Rom_2:7, Rom_5:21, Rom_6:23, 2Co_4:17-18 (2), 2Co_5:1, 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19, 2Ti_2:10, Tit_1:2, Tit_3:7, Heb_5:9, Heb_6:2, Heb_9:12, Heb_9:14-15 (2), 1Pe_5:10, 1Jo_1:2, 1Jo_2:25, 1Jo_3:15, 1Jo_5:11, 1Jo_5:13, 1Jo_5:20, Jud_1:7, Jud_1:21
everlasting, 25
Mat_18:8, Mat_19:29, Mat_25:41, Mat_25:46, Luk_16:9, Luk_18:30, Joh_3:16, Joh_3:36, Joh_4:14, Joh_5:24, Joh_6:27, Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_12:50, Act_13:46, Rom_6:22, Rom_16:26, Gal_6:8, 2Th_1:9, 2Th_2:16, 1Ti_6:16 (2), Heb_13:20, 2Pe_1:11, Rev_14:6
world, 3
Rom_16:25, 2Ti_1:9, Tit_1:2
ever, 1
Phm_1:15

I don't know if such word studies have been done on other translations, but this evidence from the KJV is quite convincing for the definition of the term aiōnios.

Annihilation may be perpetual ruin, but eternal torment is also perpetual ruin.

Annihilation is not found in the scriptures. Eternal torment is:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


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Michael Strickland

 2014/4/22 12:53Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

TMK, I understand. And please know I mean no animus.

Frankly I am a bit surprised that this is even an issue. But, I am not that smart, so finding out that something is an issue with folks is par for the course.

I can see your point except passages like Matthew 25:41 speak of everlasting fire, v. 46 says everlasting punishment. Whatever destruction is, it is hot and everlasting and unending loss.

It cannot be annihilation, the turning of someone into nothing. If it is, the evidence for it will have to be brought from outside the text of Scripture.

The idea of a one time destruction that turns someone into nothing yet is a continuing destruction is linguistically absurd. Not saying YOU, my brother, are absurd. I am only saying that if there is nothing more to destroy, once the destruction into nothingness has occurred, destruction itself must cease. If it ceases, it is hardly everlasting. If it doesn't cease, it is a portrait of the holy judge pouring punishment on a nullity. That just fails in every aspect to withstand the scriptures. Annihilation is not scripturally possible if we take the text as presented.

Now, I see where another suggests that punishment could be for a million years. This is misleading. First, it suffers from the very problem annihilation suffers--lack of biblical support. Second, it is simply an invented substitute from the thin blue sky and purely conjectural. Third, it actually substitutes a question (how long will punishment last?) where the bible declares the truth (everlasting, eternal punishment, destruction in and of fire). That is subtlety of the very kind that false teachers have used and even the Adversary employed ("has God really said not to eat of this tree?"). Again, I do NOT mean to accuse anyone of false teaching here, but I do want to identify this tactic as being one where endless questions are engendered where truth has been clearly spoken in the Word. The tactic itself is the danger, if not the teaching. Antennas should go straight up when this kind of reasoning is engaged. If annihilation IS true, we need not resort to this method of reasoning to establish it. It ought to be clear enough in the text itself.


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Tim

 2014/4/22 12:55Profile





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