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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Question For Those Who Believe In Eternal Conscious Punishment

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Question For Those Who Believe In Eternal Conscious Punishment

If Eternal Conscious Punishment is not true, then the time one does spend in torment is pointless.

 2014/6/21 17:58Profile
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re: Question For Those Who Believe In Eternal Conscious Punishment

Oracio I understand and know exactly how you feel. I uses to believe in internal torment too. But not convinced any longer. Annihilationism seems to me more of a solid doctrine. Think there could be a time in hell and after that God will ultimately destroy the body and spirit. This is new to me and still reading about it before I jump camps.

 2014/6/22 8:42Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 702
San Diego

 Re: jump camps??

I have been out of town and have not followed this thread. I read a few of the thoughts, and would say simply this:

The bible addresses major doctrines with multiple references across both Testaments. It is our protection against deception and being lured into false hope. So it is with the doctrine of Hell and the permanence of spirit life without God.

Never, allow me to repeat NEVER does the bible teach that Hell is temporary or limited. "Where the fire is not quenched and the worm dieth not" is a rich and vivid description of the place of torment, created for the devil and his angels, and for all who die in their sins. The bible does not have an escape hatch for this, and indeed the urgency cast upon us to win souls for God is just the reflection of Jesus enduring the horror of the crucifixion because it was so important. He died because there was no plan B.

We cannot help but be affected by a culture that loves sin, revels in its sweet indulgences, mocks the righteous at every turn, laughs at the thought of any eternal accountability.

But we are born of God, inheritors of His bounty, chosen to be ambassadors of His Holy Truth. The wicked are bound for eternal punishment if they refuse to repent and it is a very big deal. They will eternally suffer the reward of their sin, eternally testify to the holiness of the God whose love they spurned.

Frankly, Hell is the very best a loving God can do for those who reject Him.

Those who seek God do not jump camps!


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/6/23 0:46Profile
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Beg to differ those that seek God may find themselves learning something that might be contrary to what tradition has taught.

Want to make two point real quickly scripture is clear that hell was created for the devil and his angels.

fire that is not quenched means the fire consumes and destroys everything.

 2014/6/23 7:02Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

reformer,

2000 years of Christian history would be what you consider "what tradition has taught." Those who do not believe in an eternal, conscious hell were in the great minority among our faithful fathers.

For someone who is still learning, you defend this "new" teaching with quite a bit of zeal.

Be wise and follow the advice of the other brothers in this thread: Do not start preaching that of which you are still unsure.

Go dig in the Scriptures as many before you have and, without bias and without trying to prove your new way of thinking right, read what they say.

 2014/6/23 9:38Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 702
San Diego

 Re: fire is not quenched is only the first part.

Watch how carefully the Spirit reveals His word through the men who wrote the Bible, how the fire is not quenched- (you might draw an annihilation argument from that) but it also adds that the worm dieth not. Whatever the reality of what is being described might turn out to be, there remains strong evidence that the punishment is ongoing. The fire is not consuming the worm.

Beware of any doctrine that weakens the clear resolve of Christ's work on the cross. If there is no eternal justice to be dealt with, there is no need for the crucifixion and it's wondrous atoning power. In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus essentially asks the Father if there is another, an easier way. There is none. In the marvelous act of creating beings like Himself, He creates souls bound for eternal permanence. It is Satan who trashes men and tries to claim they are worthless- but each is an eternally precious gem in God's universe.

You will have to go away from Scripture and into your own imaginations to conclude that unrepentant men escape the eternal punishment we call Hell.

Universalism and the ultimate salvation of all souls is not a new doctrine. Theologians of every stripe have entertained it, and often based it on the doctrine of original sin. It is a compelling argument that if God created all men as sinners He is obligated to also save them all.

Which is another reason the doctrine of original sin is incompatible with the call of God for men to repent. One can turn from sinful deeds but not from a sinful nature.

So if you go to one of the universalist interpretations of those whose minds cannot accommodate an eternal ongoing Hell you will have plenty of company. They will also want to show you how homosexuality and abortion also have place in the church, no one is to be condemned or judged.

But before you go there with all the beautiful people, be sure to listen to the sermon leading the list of 20th century significance- "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" by Paris Reidhead.

Always plead in prayer, always allow the Holy Spirit to reveal your heart to you.


May truth prevail in our hearts, and may I never think I can create any of it on my own.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/6/23 20:06Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

The major problem with the doctrine of annihilationism is that do with the resurrection. It makes no sense for The Lord to provide all dead men with resurrected bodies only to destroy them.

The problem with universalism is one of degree of sin. Isaiah 59 makes it clear that men have separated themselves infinitely from The Lord. Sin is never in degrees of forgivability. It is either paid for or it is not and the cost of separation from an infinite holy God is infinite sacrifice, hence the sacrifice of God, who died for us--Jesus.

Wow! How marvelous and wonderful and mysterious is the cross! We will spend all eternity just mediating on the glory of God through the cross of Jesus Christ!

 2014/6/23 20:34Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5201
NC, USA

 Re:

quote: "so if you go to one of the universalist interpretations of those whose minds cannot accommodate an eternal ongoing Hell you will have plenty of company. They will also want to show you how homosexuality and abortion also have place in the church, no one is to be condemned or judged."

Biting my tongue, oh how I am biting my tongue. Prayers please.


_________________
Todd

 2014/6/23 21:40Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1968
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I once heard a church leader say that all of those in leadership in his fellowship did not agree on many minor points of doctrine. So, they had questions that they referred to as their "Five Year Questions", meaning that they could never really reach total agreement and about once every five years they brought these things up for further discussion.

As I have followed this thread, I have noticed a few things about which I wanted to comment.

First, there has been an equivocation made between annihilationism and universalism. The two are very different topics. Annihilationism vs. eternal torment deals with the form of judgment that sinners experience. Universalism speaks to the supposed eventual salvation of all men. The first is a valid topic for scriptural discussion. The second is clear heresy. But to say that the first somehow implies the second is, in my opinion, to attempt to discredit one possible interpretation by linking it to something that is clearly indefensible. The idea that an annihilationist is somehow also a universalist is simply not a true idea.

Second, annihilationism vs. eternal torment is not a new argument in the church. I was raised as a pentecostal, brought up under the people who walked with Parham. They were very strict annihilationists, calling the doctrine "destruction of the wicked". Their scriptural interpretation and argument were a solid in that direction as any that I have seen to support eternal torment.

I would be interested to see someone begin to list scriptures that can be interpreted to support both doctrines, and a discussion as to how we interpret these scriptures in light of context and the other passages. I know we all have an opinion, some more strongly held than others. But our opinions are like belly buttons...well, you know the rest.


_________________
Travis

 2014/6/25 11:22Profile





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