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Sorry about that PP :) I think I was confused because there was no id. Anyway PP, my interest lies in people caught up in hatred bitterness and fear. I also have a different concept of what freedom means in Scriptural terms which I am sure we will not agree on. Since you are not caught up in hatred bitterness and fear then the rest of the conversation would simply be us disagreeing which neither of us need :) God bless you PP...............Bro Frank
| 2014/4/21 10:17|
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Hi brother Frank,
RE: ///I also have a different concept of what freedom means in Scriptural terms which I am sure we will not agree on.///
(the context of Tozers Quote was clearly relgious freedoms of this nation and not Spirtual freedom.)
Brother I am fully aware as was Tozer and Wilkerson etc. of What It is to be free in Christ. I know what Peace (Canaan) is, I know what it is to be set free from sins to embarrassing to speak of, in which the will did not have strength of its self to overcome.
I do not understand why you feel that a statement such as Tozers : "We live in a free land, and we ought to thank God every day for that privilege." - AW Tozer
Somehow negates that Freedom .
Out of respect for you Brother I will move my thoughts to another thread when I get time , in which I will ask that you and others correct me if I accidently misrepresent any facts, As I try to see more clear in this dark glass.
Thank you and God Bless you.
| 2014/4/21 11:07||Profile|
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Hi PP, my thoughts on what Scriptural freedom is has nothing to do with men or a single quote from Tozer or anything like that. There is a political freedom in this land and I acknowledge that, as there is political freedom in Britain and Europe and countless other countries. This is not the freedom of the Scriptures, this is a political freedom born of men's desire. I do not say that is a bad thing, but it is not the freedom that Jesus speaks of. I think it is common sense to use political freedom if one has it. If someone offers me a steak or a piece of spam, I am likely to choose the steak, but I do not need that steak.
The point of my post is to seek for soul searching by those caught up in fear and hatred and bitterness and paranoi about the Government. Now you may not know anyone personally who is caught up in such a deadly spiritual condition, but what has that to do with anything PP? Or you may claim that none of Christendom is caught up in fear and hatred and bitterness and paranoi, in that case, we would simply have to agree to disagree..........bro Frank
| 2014/4/21 14:09|
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"My own attitude toward the Washington political establishment is at variance to Paul's directive to "be subject to the ruling authorities." So I will keep my attitude to myself."
I think Paul had no choice but to be subject to the ruling authorities. Rome was a dictatorship. Dissenters were punished or killed. So I am not sure whether Paul' statement was one of principle or rather pragmatism. We may be subject to the laws of the land but in a democracy we have the opportunity to at least try to influence things with our vote.
Another way of looking at it---if Paul had lived in a democracy would he have voted?
| 2014/4/21 14:26||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
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1 Peter 2:11-17 NIV
Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society
11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2014/4/21 14:33||Profile|
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Paul was a Roman Citizen, therefore, he could vote in Roman elections. But the Bible is not about Paul's life. So He isn't going to write about trivial things regarding voting or politics--only things that matter for eternity, such as submission to governing authorities for the sake of the Gospel. So pragmatism wasn't Paul's objective.
Not only that, democracy is not God's gift to politics. It is man's invention and it accomplishes this goal: governance of the people by means of pacification through citizen participation.
Do I like democracy? Yes. I prefer it to many other forms of government. Is it biblical? Well, it is about as biblical as a cheeseburger, I suppose.
That being said, I want to make something very clear. The goal of Christianity is not the reformation of society, whether by democracy or some strange form of theocracy. Why? Because the preaching of the Gospel is about the coming of an eternal Monarch who will bring all of creation under His authrity, casting all dissenters into damnation and honoring all those who are loyal to the one true King. We are to advance the Kingdom of Christ.
Do I vote? Yes. Will I defend my right to vote or my other rights when they are stripped away from me because I am a Christian? No. Forget it. I am not a citizen of this country anyway. I am a citizen of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. And my King commands me to submit to those who are in authority over me. He offers no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
| 2014/4/21 15:00||Profile|
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So I have been thinking over this thread since you first posted it and I have to tell you it has given me so much to think about. First I have to confess something here, I realized in praying on this subject that I have at times been guilty of feeling frustrated, even angry with the government. Not to such a degree that I would ever suggest rebellion, but still in my heart I have grumbled at times, grumbled about paying high taxes, and grumbled about decisions being made that I think are controlling, or I don't agree with. I must also confess that there was a time when this attitude of frustration that I held in my heart kept me from praying for those in position of authority over me. I was bitter and resented these people for doing the things they were doing. I resented that they were taking so much of "my money" and using it in ways that I did not agree with. It really has been over the past six years or so that I have come to see how that bitterness and anger was keeping me in sin and from obeying GOD. The LORD calls me to pray for my leaders and yet how could I when I was holding such ugliness in my heart over their actions. It was a real time of seeing just how wicked my attitude was and how easily I had allowed myself to be caught up in the affairs of this world. My focus was not on JESUS it was on the here and now. I have since repented of this attitude and GOD has been working in my life. I am now able to pray(according to HIS leading) for men/women who hold positions in the government with a true and genuine heart that they be saved and come to know JESUS.
In reading what you posted I realized though there is still more work to be done in my heart in this matter. I realize I still can catch myself "grumbling" over new taxes and even being fearful of how I will pay them instead of focusing on the fact that JESUS has provided every single time. I have always been cared for. Where was my thanks giving and praise for HIM for such care and provision??? No sadly my sight again had been allowed to be focused on the "happenings" around me instead of KING JESUS. Something I am repenting of even now.
I know you asked a simple questions and I have given a rather long winded reply but I just felt led to share my heart on this and to bring into the light some of my sin. In responding I will say that I am not caught up in the same addiction to current worldly affairs as I once was but I still recognize that there is work to be done in my heart on the matter. I now see how easy it can be for the enemy to use situations to harden my heart and steel my affections. I know I must be diligent in following HIM only.
Let close this by saying, I give thanks that FATHER is so merciful to me. I give thanks that you shared these things the LORD has placed on your heart here with us. I am reminded of what you shared here in your post: "Give to the world or Caesar what is his, but give to God what is His. What is His? All of you. To do this we must die to the cultural influences that course through our veins and come up higher. Genuine Christianity transcends the world and all of its cultures. Walk in the Kingdom, follow the King and be the ambassadors you were called to be. Our allegiance is to Jesus and to Him alone. Our identity is in Christ and Christ alone. Let us fight the fight that the Lord Himself has called us to fight, not with the weapons of this world or as the world fights whether in wars or in the political realms, but on our knees before a high and Holy God. This is our calling, and all the more as we see that day approach. Everything else? A distraction."
Truly good seeds to hold on to!
| 2014/4/21 15:05||Profile|
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". In responding I will say that I am not caught up in the same addiction to current worldly affairs as I once was but I still recognize that there is work to be done in my heart on the matter. I now see how easy it can be for the enemy to use situations to harden my heart and steel my affections. I know I must be diligent in following HIM only."
As always sister, I appreciate your humble and transparent heart as you speak the truth............bro Frank
| 2014/4/21 15:15|
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Good post Havok, you said it well.......... bro Frank
| 2014/4/21 15:16|
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Bro Greg writes.....
"Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society"
And of course that is the challenge. Peter writes......." live as free " not the freedom as the world creates or measures it, but as freedmen in Christ who in the same chapter are told to sumbit not only to the good master but also to the bad. Simply because a man has a master in this world has nothing to do with the fact that he is a free man in Christ. In the same chapter again Peter reminds us that we are, despite our political freedoms, whether slave or free in this world, priests in a Royal priesthood.
Should a man ever violate his concience if his master compelled him to do wrong? Of course not and he should gladly suffer the consequences of following the Word of God and the Holy Spirit............bro Frank
| 2014/4/21 15:28|