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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Do you hate the Government?

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 Do you hate the Government?

Brothers and sisters. There continues to be an anti government movement within Christendom. At the center of this hatred for government seems to be taxes and the Federal government and Obama-care. Now, can we say we are standing on solid ground if we are caught up with land disputes and cattle grazing rights and other such worldly things?

Believers down through the centuries, have paid taxes to any manner of evil governments, starting with Rome. When the Romans extracted taxes from the vanquished nations and from property owners, do you imagine that the money was used for Godly enterprises? Nero himself used to dip Christians in oil and then set them ablaze to light up his parties at night. Should Christians and Jewish people have paid taxes to Nero’s government?

At the very heart of the conception of the American experience lies rebellion and taxes. Nothing has changed, it is still the same. The Word says that God is not mocked, what a man or a nation sows, it surely reaps.Yet in this vast nation there are millions of genuine saints and I thank the Lord that there is, for it is the light of the western world. Ravenhill suggested that a mere 5-7% of this nation was actually Christians. I think it may be more like 20%. Yet even if it is only 20%, that is almost 60 million genuine saints. God is calling His saints, His remnant saints to be readied for the final days of the ages. A great darkness draws near and the Satan himself is on the verge of unleashing evil on a scale never seen before or even imagined.

The remnant saints will be about their Father’s business. They will draw closer to Him as that day approaches. They will draw closer to each other as that day approaches. The other 80% will be fighting each other over political ideologies. First there was nation against nation, then there is kingdom against kingdom. The Greek word for Kingdom is ethnos, it is where we get our word ethnic from. People groups hating and turning on one another. The greatest divide in people groups in America today? Right versus left, Republican versus Democrat, Capitalist versus Socialist.

The hatred amongst these groups is tangible. Let the world do what they must, but do not be counted in their numbers. We as the Body of Christ were not called into the Kingdom of God to rescue or sustain cultures, good or bad. We were called to turn the world upside down. We were not called to be a sub-culture but to be a counter-culture. Can anyone really tell the difference between so much of what passes for Christianity today and the world?

The culture in this country, in the broadest terms, splits into two groups. One side of the culture is conservative and typically loves political freedom and are generally capitalists, the other side is liberal and loves government intervention and social programs and so on. Neither side is Godly, they are merely a product of their world and both sides will eventually turn on the remnant saints. The sad thing about both sides, but mainly the conservative side, is that they try to make a virtue out of their “isms”, when in actual fact they are just as worldly, often more so, than their liberal counterparts, they are just more blinded to their worldliness. Of course, if one is still a friend to the world and fully engaged in it and the culture,they will escape the coming persecution and more than likely be the persecutors.

Give to the world or Caesar what is his, but give to God what is His. What is His? All of you. To do this we must die to the cultural influences that course through our veins and come up higher. Genuine Christianity transcends the world and all of its cultures. Walk in the Kingdom, follow the King and be the ambassadors you were called to be. Our allegiance is to Jesus and to Him alone. Our identity is in Christ and Christ alone. Let us fight the fight that the Lord Himself has called us to fight, not with the weapons of this world or as the world fights whether in wars or in the political realms, but on our knees before a high and Holy God. This is our calling, and all the more as we see that day approach. Everything else? A distraction. .............. bro Frank

 2014/4/20 13:19
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Do you hate the Government?

Hi Brother,

I do not have much time now but I would like to respond more indepth later.
Because I have been thinking alot lately about the distinction between what I would label as the remnant pacifist in which I would lable those such as bercot/taylor and what I have gathered of yourself on such perspective and show the clear distinction with that of what I would label as remnant nonresistant of which from what I have gathered I would Label those such as David Wilkerson and TSC, Tozer and many other preachers on SI.



Brother Frank could you please go into more depth of what you are implying with this statement :

RE: ///At the very heart of the conception of the American experience lies rebellion and taxes.///

 2014/4/20 13:38Profile









 Re:

Hi prudpapa,

I have sympathies with all the names that you mentioned but do not consider myself in any one camp or another. If I were closer to anyone it would probably be Wilkerson and Tozer but pigeon-holing never really helps a conversation I have found.

At this time I am not prepared to go into a more in-depth explanation as to what I meant by that statement bro. Not because I do not want to answer your question, in fact, anyone who has been around SI for several years or who reads what I write on my own website would no where I am coming from. No, at this point I think it would be a distraction to the over-arching question that the post poses and that is " Do you hate the Government." I hope that makes sense to you brother?. My hope for this post is one of self-examination.

We are living in the end days, of that I have no doubt. And I believe the enemy of our souls is desperately trying to distract us from the purpose we who are of this generation were called to. We have been called to herald the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. We have been called to be a witness to the world. Most of all, we have been called to unity. And there is a growing unity, not a counterfeit, but a growing unity in the remnant Body of Christ. This, the enemy fears more than anything. So his most vital task is to distract and divide. A unified Body of Christ on the earth as a witness to Christ Himself and a fulfillment of the high priestly prayer of Jesus in John 17 spells the end for the enemy and the return of Christ. And so the enemy will shortly come after every genuine saint on the earth in an effort to shor-circuit the plan of God. It will fail. Yet, we, the visible witness, will be led like lambs to the slaughter and we will love our enemies. The Spirit of God will be poured out upon the Body of Christ as a whole, like has never been seen before because it will be worldwide.

Imagine if you will, a fragrant army of a Spirit filled remnant saints, so endued with power from on high that they can, like Stephen, in the very midst of persecution and death and hell, lift their hands and their heads to heaven, having a vision even in the midst of a terrible death and be full of love and forgiveness for the ones who are casting the stones. Jesus released this power when He cried from the cross " Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Now brother, this is a hell shaking and destroying love that Satan himself has no answer to.

And so, if one presently hates the government and is taken up with fear and bitterness, how will that one love his enemies who will kill him? Now is the time to prepare, for this persecution is coming soon and it will be world-wide..............bro Frank

 2014/4/20 14:07
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi brother,

I do not consider it as pigeon-holing, I feel it is trying to understand and seperate two distinct ways of approaching and understanding Scripture, Which in return effects many areas of our walk and how we relate to others including how we relate to others such as military and post Military personnel, police etc., Romans 13 the sermon on the mount past historic wars, chaplins in the service etc.

RE: /// If I were closer to anyone it would probably be Wilkerson and Tozer ///

Let me ask you this do you believe that Tozer or Wilkerson ever wrote or said anything that would cause a Military personnel, police officer etc. past or current to fill personally offended because of there office/position ?


RE: ///At this time I am not prepared to go into a more in-depth explanation as to what I meant by that statement bro///

actually even a simplistic explanation will do, I am honestly confused by what you are implying by the statement. Is it anti revelutionary war statement , I guess is what I am trying to figure out.

It might be needful for me to move this to another thread if so I will try to do so when I get more time.



 2014/4/20 15:30Profile









 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

The overarching point of the post is " Do you hate the Government?" Do you? ............bro Frank

 2014/4/20 15:59
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3291
Louisiana

 Re: Do you hate the Government?

I hate sin. Homosexuality and and murdering babies in their mother's womb is sin. I hate the spirit of antichrist that wants to wipe out any mention of Christ in our society. Our government supports all of the above. Our president, most of the congress, and the justice system in this nation are corrupt. These are just facts that no one can dispute. Having said that, we are commanded to pray for our president and for all those in authority. The elected officials in this nation are a result of a people that call light darkness and good evil. It is a result of a Church that is for the most part is not being the salt and the light that God has called us to be.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2014/4/20 16:13Profile









 Re:

PP I guess I am a little puzzled by your position I grant you have done more reading in the Anabaptists than I. But if I remember from my readings of some of these saints they held to a view of citizenship in another kingdom. Citizenship, in a heavenly kingdom. This was what brought them into conflict with the temporal state.

In the movie, The Radicals, which is the story of Michael Sattler, it was shown the Anabaptist would not take up arms against the invading Turks. Or take up arms period. Take up arms for or against a temporal authority. They believed this went against the teachings of Jesus onthe Sermon in the Mount.

It has been several years since I have read Estepp`s book, The Anabaptist Story or Verduin`s book, The Reformers and their Stepchildren. But if memory serves the authors show Anabatist holding to a spiritual citizenship in a spiritual kingdom. They would submit to the temporal authority provided such submission did not conflict with the gospel teachings of Christ.

In actuality this is the teaching of the New Testament. Before the Anabaptist, the first century church saw they were citizens of a heavenly kingdom. They saw they were strangers and aliens bound for a heavenly home.

Though you did not ask me. I believe the American Revolution was unbiblical. Let me take it one step further. I believe the American Civil War was unbiblical particularly from the southern side. And I live in the South. I also believe our invasion of Iraq was unbiblical. I can go on and on. But I see that Christians who participate in war are not following the teachings of Jesus.

New Testament believers are called to a heavenly citizenship. The only war they are called to is a spiritual war. Their only weapons for thus war are the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God and the power of prayer.

My thoughts of course.

Bearnaster

 2014/4/20 16:54









 Re:

"Do you hate the government"? Strange question. One I would expect from the government.

Does that imply we are supposed to love the government?

"Government" is a structure, we hate or love people. Some love to oppress, others hate oppression. Sins can be loved or hated. Men can be loved or hated, the government can be avoided to a point, but in this world there are things you cannot avoid. Men's laws and taxes surround you.

1Th_3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, AND TOWARD ALL MEN, even as we do toward you:

Our love is to abound "toward all men", but this is not love for their deeds or their oppression, but rather their souls.

1Pe 2:17-18 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Jesus said "pay your taxes". He did not say you had to love doing it. However, we must guard against bitterness. One can pay Caesar his taxes, not loving it and yet not being bitter, either. I cannot say I love paying taxes or love oppression or love injustice. I do not avoid paying taxes, because it is not worth it to my family if I am in jail for disobeying men's laws when Jesus clearly paid a tax Himself. Furthermore, I cannot say I love manipulation and control. The Spirit of God in me, hates it. God actually said, He hates unjust government. That is what the Nicolaitain spirit is, unjust spiritual government over souls and Jesus said twice that He hated it. So, in short, I hate what God hates and love what God loves. We see throughout the OT and NT that God hates oppression and injustice.

Do I recognize the oppression of government? Yes. Do I like it? No. Who does? Do I love the souls of individuals with government jobs? Yes.

My warfare is not against flesh and blood.

With that said, the Apostle Paul got caught up in a dispute about being treated unjustly as a Roman citizen and he appealed to Roman law. If an American has a dispute with the government then he/she can appeal to the laws in existence (last time I checked) just as Paul did. Just guard your heart, for out of it flow the issues of life.(Proverbs).

If you say the Lord set up the governing authorities for our good, then you must admit that He is able to work through the governing authorities (courts) that He set up, on our behalf. Maybe this is what Paul recognized. You cannot recognize one and omit the other. Even when Paul appealed to Rome, he knew his warfare was still spiritual and he had to guard his heart.

 2014/4/20 18:02









 Re:

Somewhere it says and the government willbe on His shoulders. The government of His kingdom.

Bear.

 2014/4/20 19:23









 Re:

Quote:
Somewhere it says and the government will be on His shoulders. The government of His kingdom. Blaine





“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.” (Isaiah 9:6–7, NASB95)

 2014/4/20 19:33





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