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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3301


Some are missing something very important, For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. Romans 8:7.

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Romans 13:1

What I read here is there is no authority except from God, so even your governing authorities are to submit to God. If they are not submitting to God, "which most of ours are not today" are we still to submit to them? My guess is no.

Actually, Satan rules the world through deception and sin, not legitimately by God, Rev 12:9."remind you of anyone?. If Satan rules the world, are we to submit to him?


 2014/4/17 15:09Profile


We need to remember when Rom.13 was written one of the most depraved emperors was on the throne in Rome. His name was Nero. Not only was Paul telling the early Christians to submit to Nero. But also to pray for him in accordance with 2 Tim. 2.

It was only when Nero and the other Roman emperors declared themselves devine the early Christians would not submit them.

Like it or not (personally I do not like it) Obama Care it s law. It must be submitted to. But when Obama declares himself to be a god and requires worship, then I am on solid ground to say no. Of course this will probably mean my imprisonment and ultimately martyrdom.


 2014/4/17 15:24

Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 798



I can happily use the court system that we have and say things like, "I am allowed to have a trial before a jury of my peers" and things like that. However, at the point in which they deny me that, I will not rise up and avenge myself. For what just cause (in regards to the world) was Paul beheaded, Peter crucified, Stephen stoned, etc. No just cause at all. However, while we do have the opportunity, I would say that it is okay to appeal to our laws. However, it obviously didn't work for long with any of those men. We should not expect that it will work for long here, especially since now they are skirting around them or just blatantly ignoring them or refusing to enforce them.

"And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold..."

 2014/4/17 17:54Profile


The only true authorities are those that God ordains who are under the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ and NOT ANTICHRIST. Romans 13 in the hands of the ungodly is an awful thought. Antichrist rulers are not "ministers for our good", only those who submit to Jesus Christ, are.

Hos 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

I am NOT bound by the Scriptures to obey and support the man made antichrist governments of this world, but I am DUTY bound to live peaceably with all men as much as I possibly can. My loyalty, and obedience, is NOT to the state and its 501c3 contract.

I will obey the one whose Name is called the Word of God. No matter how the antichrist rulers of this world pervert, threaten, and illegally use the power of carnal force against me. I will obey God rather than men.

If apostle Paul was advocating obedience to secular authorities, then Caesar would have no cause against him. Why would Caesar have Paul beheaded if he was promoting obedience to Rome?

The truth is that Apostle Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government known as the Kingdom of Heaven. Already this new government was turning the world upside down. Caesar had Paul killed to help stop this threat to Rome's power.

The reason that you don't see Christians being killed in America is because they are not a threat to the kingdoms of this world. They are part of them.

And you know something, I shouldn't and will not promote the Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land (that is what it says in Article IV). No, the supreme law of the land (as far as I am concerned) is the Word of God.

 2014/4/17 18:21


There does not seem to be very much consistency to the claim that obedience to governments can only happen if that government is not antichrist. Since when was any government measured in such terms? Governments cannot believe that Christ has come in the flesh. Faith is personal not collective.

In China during the development and gradual takeover of the country by the communists (1921-1949), believers had the very real opportunity to decide how they were going to behave and act when the communists finally took power. Right up until the very end many believers preached the gospel, prayed for God's deliverance and then had to watch the Peoples Liberation Army march into their cities and take power.

For a short period, these same believers also had an insight into what it would be like to live under hostile conditions. This was during the Sino-Japanese war (1937-1945). The Japanese thought they could control the churches and tried to do so. Yet in Peking (Beijing) and Shanghai there were very different effects and outcomes to this controlling influence by the Japanese. In Shanghai the churches largely went underground and believers met in the homes of the elders of the churches, whilst in Peking, under the leadership of Wang Mingdao the church was largely left alone because Wang Mingdao himself simply refused to comply either to register with the Japanese or to hide.

When the communist take over came, Wang Mingdao took the same disobedient position as he did in the Sino-Japanese war and found to his utter surprise that the Chinese instead of just leaving him to get on with it, they threatened him with death. They put a gun to his head. At that point he knew that things were going to be different. In contrast the churches in Shanghai under the elders who had led the church underground, Watchman Nee was preparing them for the reality of what was to come under the hand of the communists. Their experience of obeying the Japanese Government, to dissolve the outward evidence of church, or register meant that the church in Shanghai was ready to follow the same approach with the Communists.

Wang Mingdao when he was first arrested and tortured refused to cooperate and of course he refused to yield up his faith. In the end he had a mental breakdown and signed the necessary forms. He was released and after two years of recovery he went and handed himself back in and declared that he had made a mistake. He received 23 years in labour camps and suffered greatly for his faith. When Watchman Nee was arrested in 1952 he refused to yield up his faith, but was in all other respects willing to be obedient. He was tortured and chastened for nearly four years and in the end the communists had no choice but to try him for political crimes rather than for his faith.

Today much of the underground church in china is the evidence of the difference in these two attitudes. I don't think that obedience to governments is a matter of choice, and I cannot see any justification for making spurious distinctions. If we are asked to yield up our faith then we can clearly disobey. If we are asked to hate our brother and sister we can disobey if we are able to resist to the end. But if we are asked to pay taxes, or sweep the streets or clear latrines or shave our heads or wear filthy clothes and give up our possessions we can obey because these things are of no consequence. These things can only mean an end to ourselves and an end to loving this world. In finality it will mean our adoption as sons when we are required to put of this corrupt body in order that we might put on incorruption. Now is the time to learn these things and we may not have as much time as we believe.

Wang Mingdao was not a faithless brother, quiet the reverse, but his experience in the Sino-Japanese war of openly disobeying the Japanese government in occupation of Peking, taught him a wrong lesson. Nee on the other hand encouraged the little flocks to obey the Japanese authorities in the Shanghai occupation and so they were able to prepare and learn how to live hidden lives and serve Christ from a position of being unseen by those in authority. We would do well to take the same position now whilst we can do so. Learn to obey and to suffer loss now, and then when the time comes to suffer complete loss we will not rebel and take up arms to defend ourselves or feel a need to betray our brethren because we have not yet learned to suffer for the sake of the Lord.

 2014/4/17 18:59

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


RE: ///Oh sorry, my american friend, I fixed it below. I wonder what our friends in communist china would think this translation now.
Romans 13
New International Version (NIV)
Submission to The Constitution of the United States///

Sarcasim is very out of character for you brother.

 2014/4/17 19:34Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3301


Just looking outside the box here, Obamacare soon probably will be the least of our worries.


 2014/4/17 20:01Profile

 Re: Resisting Governing Authorities

The hoopla from Christians here in the USA regarding Obamacare is not so much about a refusal to pay taxes or not wanting to obey the authorities, but rather about christians and christian organizations being forced to subsidize abortions, sterilizations, and contraceptives.

This is a violation of a believers conscience and has nothing to do with them wanting to rise up and overthrow the government. So I humbly suggest that references to overthrowing British rule or over throwing Nero are not really appropriate for a comparison for this particular topic.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, this law is loathed be believers for the above stated reasons and yes, Christians are actively praying against these things as they should, but not just praying, they are doing something about it. For example, Hobby Lobby have said that they will not participate in Obamacare because it violates their religious beliefs, and they are fighting this in the courts because the government are refusing to grant them exemption on religious grounds.

Before we jump up and down and denounce Hobby Lobby though I would encourage you to consider something of a biblical precedence regarding religious liberty in the bible. Act 5, the Apostles had been thrown into the Jerusalem prison under accusation of the Sadducees. Their trial was set for the next morning. However, when they called for the prisoners, the guards came back empty-handed! God Himself had sent an angel to release the apostles and commanded them to, “Go and stand in the temple, and tell the people all about this life.” God actively assisted them and commanded them to defy the government authorities when it came to issues of religious freedom. Peter then later explained to the convened Sanhedrin, “We must obey God rather than men.”

Of course the example in Acts is far more important one than the ACA and the stakes are not the same, but nonetheless, this passage does serve to give us a little peak into the mind of God and what we see is that God cannot be squeezed into our doctrinal boxes.

Rather than argue over who is right and who is wrong why can't we just let believers be led by the Lord in these matters? Why get uptight and argue...such a teeny-tiny issue in the scheme of things. If some people want to pray and fight against ACA...JUST LET THEM...we have much more important matters to be concerned about, right?

 2014/4/17 21:08


Awakened writes.........

"This is a violation of a believers conscience and has nothing to do with them wanting to rise up and overthrow the government. So I humbly suggest that references to overthrowing British rule or over throwing Nero are not really appropriate for a comparison for this particular topic. "

I humbly disagree brother. Believers, down through the centuries, have paid taxes to any manner of evil governments, starting with Rome. When the Romans extracted taxes from the vanquished nations and from property owners, do you imagine that the money was used for Godly enterprises? Nero himself used to dip Christians in oil and then set them ablaze to light up his parties at night. Should Christians and Jewish people have paid taxes to Nero's government?

At the very heart of the conception of the American experience lies rebellion and taxes. Nothing has changed, it is still the same. The Word says that God is not mocked, what a man or a nation sows, it surely reaps.

Yet in this vast nation there are millions of genuine saints and I thank the Lord that there is, for it is the light of the western world. Ravenhill suggested that a mere 5-7% of this nation was actually Christians. I think it may be more like 20%. Yet even if it is only 20%, that is almost 60 million genuine saints. God is calling His saints, His remnant saints to be readied for the final days of the ages. A great darkness draws near and the Satan himself is on the verge of unleashing evil on a scale never seen before or even imagined.

The remnant saints will be about their Father's business. They will draw closer to Him as that day approaches. They will draw closer to each other as that day approaches. The other 80% will be fighting each other over political ideologies. First there was nation against nation, then there is kingdom against kingdom. The Greek word for Kingdom is ethnos, it is where we get our word ethnic from. People groups hating and turning on one another. The greatest divide in people groups in America today? Right versus left, Republican versus Democrat, Capitalist versus Socialist.

The hatred amongst these groups is tangible. Let the world do what they must, but do not be counted in their numbers. We as the Body of Christ were not called into the Kingdom of God to rescue or sustain cultures, good or bad. We were called to turn the world upside down. We were not called to be a sub-culture but to be a counter culture. Can anyone really tell the difference between so much of what passes for Christianity today and the world?

Give to the world or Caesar what is his, but give to God what is His. What is His? All of you. To do this we must die to the cultural influences that course through our veins and come up higher. Genuine Christianity transcends the world and all of its cultures. Walk in the Kingdom, follow the King and be the ambassadors you were called to be. Our allegiance is to Jesus and to Him alone. Our identity is in Christ and Christ alone. Let us fight the fight that the Lord Himself has called us to fight, not with the weapons of this world or as the world fights whether in wars or in the political realms, but on our knees before a high and Holy God. This is our calling, and all the more as we see that day approach. Everything else? A distraction.............bro Frank

 2014/4/18 0:12

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3414
This world is not my home anymore.


appolus wrote:
Give to the world or Caesar what is his, but give to God what is His. What is His? All of you. To do this we must die to the cultural influences that course through our veins and come up higher. Genuine Christianity transcends the world and all of its cultures. Walk in the Kingdom, follow the King and be the ambassadors you were called to be. Our allegiance is to Jesus and to Him alone.

Brother Frank,

I see now what you are saying and I am in 100% agreement that whatsoever a nation sows that shall it reap and boy, are we reaping. I was not trying to propagate fighting as an answer to obamacare, I apologize if it came off that way. I was talking more of praying against it and used the revolution as an example, perhaps wrongly.

Now I did wrote, “One thing I have said and believe is that God's people need to step out in faith & learn to anoint with oil and lay hands on the sick b/c people are going to need THAT more than obamacare,” I actually believed that BEFORE obamacare came into being b/c people couldn’t afford healthcare and now they can afford it even less! Because no matter how much healthcare we have to buy, it is still God who will have to heal us!

And for anyone to be able to afford healthcare, they are going to have to get 10,000$ or even 15,000$ deductible, so how does that “help” anyone that is sick not lose everything (exactly the people obama said he was trying to help)... It doesn’t EXCEPT for Christians to rise up and became who God has called them to be, walk in faith towards them that are without, and begin to lay hands on the sick and pray for them!

I need to buckle down myself in this area in order to practice what I preach, :) because I have seen with my own eyes what God can do in a life that is totally surrendered to Him, so I am without excuse.

God bless,


 2014/4/18 1:04Profile

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