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Discussion Forum : Devotional Thoughts : A little poem about Hell

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havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re:

Yes, He did. The entire purpose of creation is His good pleasure, not for ours. Some vessels are for honor and some for dishonor. We have no right to complain about the way God runs His creation.

Revelation 17:8--"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Romans 9:22--"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"

 2014/4/11 15:14Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

TMK, I'll ask a few other questions and I think you'll see my point.

If God is so loving, why does he allow babies to be born with serious physical defects or deformities, or why does He allow children to suffer from extreme hunger and illness in many parts of the world?

Why would He create a world of so much suffering in the first place if He knew it would become such a world?

If your answer is that it is only temporary that still doesn't answer the question to the satisfaction of many skeptics.

Some of God's ways are too deep for me to try to figure out. All I can do sometimes is trust Him and His Word with child-like faith because He has already proven Himself in so many ways, the climax of which is in the cross.

Some Scriptures that come to mind are the following:

"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."-Deut.29:29

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."-Isa.55:9

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!"-Rom.11:33


_________________
Oracio

 2014/4/11 15:36Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Havoc--- I had to read 3 times to make sure I read correctly what you wrote. I got the words right but not sure I quite understand exactly what you are saying. I hope you are not saying what I think you are saying so I was hoping for a clarification.


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Todd

 2014/4/11 15:37Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re:

I stand by what I said.

 2014/4/11 15:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:
What I struggle with is the implications of the traditional view, only one of which I have noted above. I don't think many Christians think about such things. Perhaps they should.



I think that increasing numbers of christians are thinking about these things. I have known a few who have lost their faith doing so. There have been times when I have wrestled with these things as well, although it has always been in the context of walking in the fleshy mind that the question has gone unresolved.

Quote:
Yes, He did. The entire purpose of creation is His good pleasure, not for ours. Some vessels are for honor and some for dishonor. We have no right to complain about the way God runs His creation.

Revelation 17:8--"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Romans 9:22--"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" havock20x



Quote:
Havoc--- I had to read 3 times to make sure I read correctly what you wrote. I got the words right but not sure I quite understand exactly what you are saying. I hope you are not saying what I think you are saying so I was hoping for a clarification. tmk



It has been this revelation which has always answered me when I think on these things in the spirit. It is the foreknowledge of the Father which makes certain my understanding and peace.

 2014/4/11 16:34
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "It is the foreknowledge of the Father which makes certain my understanding and peace."

And that is exactly what bugs the heck out of me.

I want to state as succinctly as possible what I believe havoc is stating and what you seem to be agreeing with, Andrew.

I respect your viewpoint- after all it is the view I think that the great majority of Christians hold, including my wife, mom and best friends. I believe that Havoc is throwing in some calvinism for good measure, which is another issue, but that is why I as asking him to clarify.

Anyways, here is my succinct summary of what I believe is being said by Havoc:

1) God in His good pleasure created human beings
2) He created them perfect, but they rebelled.
3) God knew in advance they would rebel.
4) In fact, in eternity past He had a provision for this rebellion, namely His son, Jesus
5) God knew/knows that the overwhelming majority of people who have ever lived will not accept this provision.
6) At some point in the indeterminate past God created a place called hell in which to consign those persons who never accept the provision of His son, Jesus.
7) Hell is a place of endless agony and torment and torture
8) It follows that the great majority of persons will end up in this place of eternal torment and torture.

In these statements, you find comfort in a loving and just God. I find a monster. Particularly because of #3, above. God is Love, He is Holy, and He is Just. How in the world is it any of these three things to throw beings He created and who He knew would rebel and who He knew would not accept Christ into a hell of eternal agony and torment? In other words, GOD CREATED THE SYSTEM. But what kind of system is that? You can say that God is God and He can do what he wants. Agreed. But the God I know would not do that. Let me rather say I hope very strongly He would not do that. I do not believe He would do that. If you believe it, then how do you know that when you die that when you get to heaven you won't hear a sinister laugh with the words "Just kidding" and that you will get tossed into hell too? After all, God can do what He wants and maybe that is just part of His system that we don't know about. You can't believe that would happen because it is absurd. I agree. And I think the points outlined above are absurd.

You see, if God knew in advance that certain persons would rebel and not accept Christ, then by gum they had no choice in the matter. There is simply no way around this. It would not be very nice of God to toss them into an eternity of hell, would it?







_________________
Todd

 2014/4/11 19:40Profile









 Re:

The reason why the foreknowledge of God gives me comfort is because it is the evidence that the Father knew from before the foundation of the world who would and who would not receive His son. If we look around us right now in those nations where the gospel has been preached how many men and women actually respond to the gospel?

In the end Revelation tells us that Hell and Death are emptied and that those who's names are not written in the book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire. We are told that Hell and Death themselves are also cast into the Lake of Fire. If we know that God is good then we must also know that he is Just and Righteous also. Whatever these terrible things mean in their fullness, as far as how men choose or reject Christ, or resist the knowledge of God, being evident in creation itself, are matters which can only belong to God Himself.

It seems to me that these difficult things only make sense in the context of reaching out to the lost in whatever way we ourselves are able to do. Therein lays some comfort at least. But I do have confidence that the Father has known from before the foundation of the world itself who would, in their lives reject and who would receive His son. If the Father had not revealed Himself through Christ no one could possibly find Him. Where would you go to look for Him? How would you lay hold of Him? As I said earlier there have been odd times when I too have struggled with these thoughts and in the end I have seen that to press them too far and to begin to curse the Father is a poor place to go to not least because He is Holy, Righteous and Good. There can be no comfort from seeing that there are some who will be cast into the eternal Lake of Fire. Whether that really does amount to so many souls as some suggest I cannot possibly know that anymore than any man can know it.

 2014/4/11 20:28
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Thank you for your thoughts Andrew.


_________________
Todd

 2014/4/11 21:12Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Many sects deny the deity of Christ and other essential truths due to using human reasoning and not believing God's clear Word on those matters.

We can try to argue all we want about the logic of eternal punishment, but if it is clearly taught in God's Word, which I believe it is, our arguments are against God Himself. If we deny these kinds of clear and essential truths we deny God Himself. If we believe that God is too loving to create an eternal hell(after being shown clearly that it's taught in Scripture), then we believe in another god, a god of our own imagination.

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."-1Cor.2:14

If we are still a natural man we need to be born again through genuine repentance and child-like faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


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Oracio

 2014/4/11 23:07Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I know from experience that new believers can struggle at first in understanding these kinds of essential truths. A case in point is in my initial struggle with the truth of the Trinity as a new believer. As a new believer I wrestled with that truth a bit due to hearing the oneness view. But eventually not too long afterward I humbly received the truth of the Trinity because it was clearly taught in Scripture.

There's a difference between that kind of struggle and a blatant denial of these kinds of clear truths after years of knowing they are taught in God's Word. I would question the validity of the faith of those in such a place. I believe that kind of blatant denial gives evidence of a lack of true regeneration.


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Oracio

 2014/4/12 0:01Profile





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