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 Re:

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR:" (1Pet 5:8)

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, AND HATH NOTHING IN ME.

Howard Pittman has an amazing testimony. Dying of an internal rupture, he left his body on the operating table and was heading towards a light when he heard a very sweet voice say, "stop breathing, stop breathing". But there was something peculiarly strange about that "sweet" voice and the Holy Spirit in him began to resist it, so he joined his will with the Lord's and began to resist it. It was not the voice of God at all, but the Adversary.

If it were possible even the Elect would be deceived. He is deceitful, counterfeiting everything that comes from God.

 2014/4/15 0:56
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Quote:

If Paul and those he was writing too knew that there was something innately evil in the flesh besides the fact that flesh is earthly, natural and knows nothing about the spirit or how to please God, then he would not have said:

“Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”

It would not have made sense to even make that statement.

Same with this verse:

Php_3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I MORE:



You have posted a very valid question that made me think. Let us consider only 2 scriptures that appear to have contradicting view of Flesh. So based on Galatians 5-17 it appears that all the desires of Flesh are against the spirit. So flesh is something that pulls a man away from the direction of Spirit. Now based on Galations 3:3, it appears that there is something Good in Flesh that a person can seek to be perfected. Now these 2 things contradict each other but scripture cannot contradict. So the Flesh meant by Apostle Paul here in Gal 3:3 is Human Effort.

New Living Bible states:-
How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?

Similarly Phi 3:4 in Living Bible :-
though I could have confidence in my own effort if anyone could. Indeed, if others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more!

Now I can explain putting confidence in flesh is something like this, a person who has just come out of Drug addiction and is still battling addiction is invited to a party in which drugs are supplied. The Spirit wants him to restrain from going to the party. But the Flesh puts a confidence in him stating that he is now strong to withheld the temptations of drug and he can be without taking them even if everyone around takes. So he chooses to ignore the Spirit and walks to the party, finally ends up getting into drugs again. It is a deception of Flesh which can deceive us that we are strong enough to withheld its temptations.

Quote:

These things do not exist in your flesh just waiting to happen. Like Sree said, you conceive sin in your heart and then YOU DO THE WORKS OF THE FLESH.



I agree with the second half of your statement about conception of Sin. But the first part of nothing sinful hiding in the flesh is not what I meant. May be I did not explain it well.

This is Zac Poonen's example from one of his article that answers the difference between flesh and conception of sin.

We have sinful flesh, whereas Jesus did not have sinful flesh. He came only "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom.8:3). But the Bible teaches that our Lord "was tempted in all points as we are" (Heb.4:15). We do not have to analyze this, even as we do not analyze the mystery of God becoming Man. We only have to believe it. At every point, in every temptation, Jesus obeyed His Father, unlike Adam.

All of us have lived in sin for many years, and our sinful flesh can be likened to a box full of poisonous snakes that have been well-fed - by us!! The names of these snakes are impurity, anger, malice, strife, bitterness, love of money, selfishness, pride, etc. This box has an opening at the top from which these snakes put out their head whenever we are tempted. We have fed these snakes in plenty during our unconverted days. As a result, they are well-fed, healthy and strong. Some snakes have been fed more than others, and so those lusts have a greater grip on us than others. Now that we have died with Christ to sin, even though these snakes are still hale and hearty, our attitude to these snakes has changed! We have now been made partakers of the Divine nature and "those who belong to Christ have crucified their flesh with its lusts" (Gal. 5:24). Unlike in the old days, now, when a snake puts its head out of the opening of the box (when we are tempted), we hit it on the head with a stick. It goes back into the box. When we are tempted again, the snake puts its head out again, and we hit it again. Gradually it gets weaker and weaker. If we are faithful in each temptation to hit the snake instead of feeding it, then we will soon find the pull of temptation weakening. The flesh cannot be 'shot' or 'hanged' in a moment. It can only be crucified. Crucifixion is a slow death, but it is a certain one. That is why we consider it all joy, when we are tempted (Jas. 1:2) - because it gives us the opportunity to hit the snakes and weaken them. This would not have been possible otherwise. - Zac Poonen in his article "Jesus - Tempted As We Are".

I do not believe that overcoming temptations has no responsibility from man and man is totally deprive to get involved in anything. No as brother Zac Poonen says here, we need to hit those snakes on its head. The strength is given by God but it is decision that we need to make to hit the snake.



_________________
Sreeram

 2014/4/15 2:34Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

that's ridicules there is not one bible verse that says sin is a demon ,,or satan is mister sin ,,,,,,talk about bad theology that's dogma at best ,and well im lost for words at worst ,,,

sin is transgression of the law

your posting heaps of scripture that has nothing to do with what were are talking about ,,,,,,,,,

whats howard pitmans experience got to with this

so every time you sin you need to get the demon sin cast out of you




not that not matters one bit what I think about the subject

I think when satan fell through pride his he suffered his spirit to fall into a corruptive sinfull state and his minded was darkened and his heart was stained

a very similar thing happened to adam and eve satan was the forerunner and the father of corruption because man and woman listened to satan god judge him and every one that was in the loins of adam to suffer the sin full nature that that adam received when his nature was corrupted

through one man sin entered into the world ,and death through sin , for all have sinned , because death spread to all men ,,,,para quote

we all die for we all sinned in adam

other wise it would be impossible for a newborn to die because it had not sinned but death spread to all men and even the new born because we all sinned in adam ,,but ,,not only that ,,in sin did my mother conceive me,,i was molden and shapen in iniquity ,,,,,

the physical manifestation of the sin we committed in adam is imbedded in the flesh that is marred and bound to to entices to excess and sinfull actions

let no one say when he is tempted that he is tepmted by god ,,,for we are tempted when we are drawn away by our OWN LUSTS AND INTISED james said that ,,,,,,,and it worth noting that he said our own lust ,,which we could easily say our own lusts of the flesh ,,,,,so we know according to the bible that it is not just satan and the hords of demons that could tempt us also just our plain old flesh by its self ,,,,in me that is in my flesh dwelth no good thing

we all still have the flesh and we all are still very capable of walking in the flesh ,or even letting the flesh rise up to tempt us to sin and even commit the sin even it is only a thought dwelt on too long or being too quick to speak and type ,,and wanting the last say all the time ,,and thinking we got all the knowledge down pat

that is not the demon sin making me do it its me in this case


but who realy cares what I think I don't realy,, I care more about living a holy spotless life before the spirit of god


blesings



 2014/4/15 3:21Profile









 Re:

Yes, Sree.

Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh". He never allowed His flesh to participate in sin. He never yielded the members of His body to unrighteousness.

All “flesh,” in the sense of all men are in solidarity with the choice that Adam made, and thus in that sense we are all in a sinful condition. Without a doubt, men WILL sin. All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

We all have a collective condition described as "sinful flesh". Roman 8:3. God condemned "sin in the flesh". Is there any other place out of the flesh where sin occurs? No, all sin occurs in man, in the flesh.

Jesus was totally unlike any other man in that He did not partake of sin and consequently did not develop sinful patterns in His flesh. He was fully flesh and blood like any man without selfishness and sinful behavior.

 2014/4/15 8:21









 Re:

brothergary,

There is no OT doctrine or Rabbi that will tell you that Jews held a doctrine that men are born sinners.

God tells us in Ezekiel, that "the soul that sins will die". We will not bear the punishment of our father's iniquity (Adam) or vice-versa. Eze 18:20. The theology of men says the son bears the punishment. The choice is yours who you want to believe.

Psalm 51:5, David is saying that he was born into a sinful environment, sinful world, sin all around him from birth. He wasn't a sinner baby, see Eze 18:20.

Eph 2:3 - What makes us children of wrath is what we have done, not what we are. See Eze 18:20.

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world...". This is referring to what you did in the flesh.

(2 Timothy 3:13) "But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived." If we were born totally depraved, then we could not get worse.

What is sin? You answered it. "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4).

You missed my earlier point about the personification of sin and righteousness and anyone that does righteousness is of God and anyone that sins is of the Devil.

 2014/4/15 8:39









 Re:

Double Posted

 2014/4/15 9:04









 Re:

When you posted the link to Howard Pittman's book Just-In in the thread "Today's Great Deception Built on the Deception of the 80's and 90's" I went and read that book from cover to cover.

If you stripped out every single part of the book other than the five points or messages which Howard explains the Lord gave him to bring to the church across the world, then I would have no difficulty with it. The problem is that he goes into such detail regarding the activity of demons, one cannot help but wonder that he himself does not realise that the overwhelming message ends up being about Satan and in the end the book has very little in it which speaks of how to walk by faith.

Not only that, but the details he gives of demonic activity runs into a presentation which has us seeing them active not only in the air, which he calls the world and the first heaven, but in a realm which is specifically inhabited by demons of every type and kind, which he calls the second heaven. Then he speaks about his first and second trip to the very gates of the third heaven where he tells us that there are no demons, but then describes a long valley and a path bathed in heavenly light on which he is not allowed to walk, but on which those who are entering heaven pass to be with God. He describes how in this tunnel the demons progressively are pressed back and thus he explains their absence from the third heaven where God Himself dwells.

There are serious problems with most of that Just-In, not least that it is a failure to comprehend the limiting passage of demons into heavenly places. He misses completely that demonic spirits are earthbound. This also highlights that he is making no proper distinction between the present sons of God (angels) who dwell in the heavens, and who are being drawn aside for a day of war and the Man of Sin.

“And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,” (Revelation 12:7, NASB95)

Those spoken of here in Revelation are not unclean spirits or demons, they are yet angels in full possession of all which is necessary to dwell in the heavens, including their bodies.

Demons on the other hand are earth bound. They have come up out of hell and they represent those who were judged in the day Satan lifted up his heart and desired to be as the Most High. Of course one man's visions are as subject to rejection as another man's visions. But in my own knowledge on these things, unclean spirits or demons, are not the same in character or origin as are those angels who presently dwell in heavenly places and are hence referred to as spiritual powers and principalities of wickedness.

For me the overwhelming problem with Howard's vision, is to do with how demonic spirits function. He describes them as stalking their prey. Entering them through their faces and in terms which make clear what type of spirit he is seeing in his vision. For example he describes a young man and a young woman in the hospital, talking to each other and laughing together, when a spirit of lust in the likeness of a frog enters into the young man through his face. There are so many things in that book which are frankly naive because it does not take a demonic spirit for a man to lust. It simply takes experience.

http://www.divinerevelations.info/dreams_and_visions/placebo_howard_pittman.htm

Howard tells us in the picture of a green from crawling up the man, that a demon of the fifth order possesses the man because the demon has made itself desirable. Yet the demon itself looks like a 'stuffed slimy green frog'. Of course what Howard is really alluding to is that the woman is desirable and the demon is just helping things along. He has the man and the woman in dressing gowns so things may have already started. One would assume that these two people are patients, as this scene is in the hospital, but in fact he tells us that they are in the employee lounge. Very subtle this Just-In because I wonder if Howard isn't inferring that these two obvious patients (dressing gowns) are really doing a naughty by using the employees lounge unlawfully? You know they had something in mind all along type of thing. Opportunity for the devil and all that!

Then Howard tells us, 'I was so close to them I could almost reach out and touch them. I could hear and understand every word they said'. Then for some inexplicable reason he doesn't see the contradiction of the words which he then uses almost immediately afterwards to explain "I was not really paying close attention to the words the two were speaking." Whenever there is so much detail, as there is in this book, concerning demonic and spiritual things of wickedness, I always feel inclined to think very carefully on how much detail is needed to say something in simplicity. If the thing being said comes by way of a vision, or as in this case an actual spiritual journey from his body to the gates of heaven, not once but twice, and then through every demonic horde and realm of spiritual wickedness, then one type of detail must correspond with another. And this is no less true in a need for scriptural accuracy. How can you be as close to someone as to touch them, hear and understand every single word they say, and yet have absolutely no idea what they have said?

Right there on the front page of the website I have linked to with the pretty pictures, we have the words "he was taken before the very throne of God" then in another place he says:

"Instead of allowing me to enter, the angel stationed me before the Gates, slightly to one side.

My escort told me to stand to one side of the Gates and present my case. He assured me that God would hear and answer my request. As I stood before the Gates, the sense of joy, happiness, and contentment radiated out from Heaven. I could feel the warmth it produced and as I stood there to plead my case. I could feel the awesome power of God. No being could possibly appear before Him, even separated by a gate as I was, without experiencing this awesome power, might and majesty."

Then Howard says:

"Boldly I came before the throne and started out by reminding God what a great life of love, worship, and sacrifice I had lived for Him. I told Him of all the works I had done reminding Him that I was now in trouble and only He could help by granting me an extension on my physical life.

There is a fundamental, and inherent contradiction Just_in, in these two sayings. I know that we can spiritualise the meaning "before the throne" but just consider this, either Howard was before the throne of the Father in Heaven in the Majesty of His radiance or he was not. You cannot be restrained in the spirit (he was at this moment in the spirit already being restrained and told God would hear him and his body was on a hospital table dying)) and at the same time be free to come before the throne. It is a confusion of meanings and lends itself to disbelief. Such a lack of accuracy is not good when you are seeking to claim that God has sent you with a message to the whole world.

Which brings me back to his message. The summary of the message at the end of the book, with the five points is just fine. It is true and it is a necessary thing to say it. The problem however is that 70% of this book is given over to establishing the nature and order of the demonic realm. Companies and orders of demons, their appearance, their powers and the sphere of their operation are all supposedly to attend to the second point of the five points, that Satan is a real person.

The principle reason for this book is to 'prove' that the lusts of the flesh are not really of the flesh but are in fact demonic spirits which possess us. Which is why you keep coming back to this same argument that men have no nature of their own. It is either of God, or of Satan according to you. The only really significant point which Howard does not lose sight of is that men have a free will.

I won't continue to argue what depravity means as Gary has in some way done it quiet simplify by saying that sin means to miss the mark. Or as he put it, sin is transgression of the Law. If I am a hungry man and need food to survive, and then go hunting to satisfy my basic need for food, I will be massively disappointed if every time I shoot the arrow I miss the mark. If this happens over and over and over again eventually I will either die of hunger or collapse with exhaustion. It seems to me that unless Satan is poking me in the eye every time I line up the arrow (and I am facing the right way) then I can at least blame Satan, and die contentedly knowing that he is the devil and I am a mere man. On the other hand my problem may just be that I myself am depraved in my natural estate of mind and body to sufficient enough an extent that I cannot see to hit the mark at all, no matter how grave my need may be, or how much Satan may want to poke me in the eye. If I am facing the wrong direction and someone shouts 'the other way' then yes I can see how Satan might distract me at that point (the parable of the seed). But if of my own nature I am facing the wrong way it is only the shout which will turn me to Christ (the gospel).

That idea is I believe, the baseline point of the doctrine of total depravity. It is not to prove that men are going to be unable to resist sin even after they come to know Christ. Depravity is as much to do with understanding the nature of the flesh in terms of an 'incapable man' who cannot save himself from sin and cannot of himself even comprehend what sin and death really is. As believers it stands to reason that this cannot be our continued experience and so as Sree shared, we can hit the serpents of the flesh on the head with the stick. It's a good parable for India no doubt, the only weakness here is that brethren such as yourself will claim that the serpents are in fact demons. Whereas the Scripture calls them the lusts of the flesh. I can see that in previously saying , there was, and never will be, a time that men can take responsibility for their own sin," I have failed to make a valid enough explanation of what that means to me or what I intended by it. Perhaps that's where simplicity has its benefit.

Finally Just-In:

Howard is not writing from a Scriptural understand at all when it comes to the most fundamental account we have from Scripture of what constitutes a man in the first instance. Howard actually believes something which has lent itself to the word of faith movement very well because he places the emphasis on an underlying belief that man is a god. It also places the emphasis that the whole of a man's problems in life can be put down to demonic activity, which he sees as a spiritual realm. In his theology the soul as a separating veil which allows men to differentiate from one another, rather than in understanding that soul is precisely who you are and without it we would not be men at all. He believes that men are in reality the precise same in substance as God Himself. If you don't believe me you ought to read the book again. It is in this completely wrong understanding of mankind that he makes it possible for him to believe that we are either driven by the Spirit of God, or else the spirit of Satan by reason of demonic hoards. He acknowledges a man's will, but then diminishes this reality by ignoring a man's true condition in the flesh.

Quote:

"When the angels lifted my spirit from my body, they carried me immediately to the Second Heaven. We did not have to leave that hospital room in order to enter the Second Heaven. We entered there in that same room where my body was, just by passing through a dimension wall. It is a wall which flesh cannot pass through, only spirit.

For you the reader, to understand what was happening, you must understand the separation of the spirit from the flesh. To know how this works, we must know how we, ourselves, are made. The Bible states that we, as humans beings are made in the image of God. To understand this, we must know what God is. The Bible states three immutable things about God: 1st God is Spirit, 2nd God is invisible and 3rd God is immortal. If we are made in His image, then we are spirit, we are invisible, and we are immortal. Therefore, when we look into a mirror we do not see our real selves. We see only the body, or earthen vessel, in which we live. Since we are all made in the image of God, we would all be mirror images of one another without our earthly, physical bodies. Therefore, we were given a soul to separate us from one another to make us an individual."

The effect of this type of doctrine is that the body becomes no more than a packed or envelope to house the spirit. Of itself the body is nothing more than a means to identify yourself to yourself. The soul is nothing more than a means to be differentiated from others. In essence, according to Howard a man is the same as God Himself. Man is spirit, invisible and immortal. That sound like something the occult word would come up with to me.

On the other hand Howard's second visit to the gates of heaven is of course an account of the prodigal son returning to obedience and the Father in heaven. It seems to me however that apart from this obviously sound part of the message there lays a belief that men are not somehow capable of obedience to God if they are not walking in the Spirit. And not because of the lusts of the flesh, but because demons take control of people and thus in disobedience these possessed people fulfil the lusts of demons. I notice that Howrd didn't actually tell us whether his previously wasted 25 years or so as a believer, police officer and pastor sometime, was wasted because he was himself possessed and walking in the power of Satan. Mmmm.




 2014/4/15 9:05









 Re:

I did not post a link to any Howard Pittman book. I just know a bit about his testimony. Anyway, it doesn't matter who posted it, I have found out in this thread that you just tear down men and don't know how to converse using the scriptures. You can have the last word, this time. It is time to move on.

 2014/4/15 12:15









 Re:

I cannot support my comment that you posted a link to the Howard Pittman book so I apologise for saying that. Clearly it was an inaccurate statement. You are also correct that I tear down those things which are false. Though of course this is not what you said or what you intended to mean. Some people accuse me of tearing down my brethren as well. I have learned to live with this and understand why it is said to me.

There is no such thing in my mind which amounts to a conversation using scriptures. A thing is either true or it is false. There is no middle ground. The devil can quote scriptures, and it would be of no benefit whatsoever. As you say that it is time to move on, then move on.

 2014/4/15 13:28
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh". He never allowed His flesh to participate in sin. He never yielded the members of His body to unrighteousness.

All “flesh,” in the sense of all men are in solidarity with the choice that Adam made, and thus in that sense we are all in a sinful condition. Without a doubt, men WILL sin. All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

We all have a collective condition described as "sinful flesh". Roman 8:3. God condemned "sin in the flesh". Is there any other place out of the flesh where sin occurs? No, all sin occurs in man, in the flesh.

Jesus was totally unlike any other man in that He did not partake of sin and consequently did not develop sinful patterns in His flesh. He was fully flesh and blood like any man without selfishness and sinful behavior.///

very well said.


 2014/4/15 17:21Profile





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