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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : There Is Therefore Now No Condemnation

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TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 There Is Therefore Now No Condemnation

For a long time I read and understood Romans 8:1 as declaring our forgiveness and justification in Christ. That is 100% true. Later, I pondered how odd the timing and location of this statement is. The original Greek manuscripts had no chapter or verse markings. There is no end of thought between chapter 7 and chapter 8. The emphasis in chapter 7 is a regenerate man trying to live under the law by the "flesh" (relying on self-effort and determination) to live up to the law. He fails because of the weakness of his flesh. He groans in despair about his condition and failure. Chapter 8 emphasizes the answer to his dilemma by living according to the Spirit. I am not a Greek scholar but I recently found a discussion about this word condemnation that opened my eyes to what is being said. There are 2 Greek words that are translated into English as "condemnation". They are similar in spelling but each has a slightly nuanced meaning different from the other one.

Krima is the Greek word that means judicial guilt. "Guilty". Romans 8:1 is not talking about our forgiveness or justification in Christ.

Katakrima denotes the sentence handed down to the guilty party. Not just the sentence being pronounced but the actual serving the sentence. The condition endured, not just a judicial pronouncement. Condition instead of Position.

So when Paul says that there is no condemnation in Christ right after talking about the misery of his condition living according the the law of sin and death he is saying that he is not doomed to having to endure the tyranny of such an awful condition resulting from a life of sin and failure. The law of the Spirit of life has set him free, and not just judicially. The Spirit Himself gives the power of life to the new man to live a life suited to his new identity in Christ.

Forgiveness and justification and position in Christ were gone over in detail in chapters 4, 5, and 6. Chapters 7 and 8 are about Condition and experience.

I have to admit that I did not come to this realization on my own. I want to give credit to David Anderson in his book "Portraits of Righteousness". Below are quotations directly from his book:

Most translations rely on a Greek text that reads something like: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Preachers typically use this verse as a guilt reducer, reminding us of our position “in Christ”: we have been completely forgiven of all our sins, past, present, and future (= justification). So when we still drag around a wheelbarrow full of guilt, we need to recall that there is no longer any condemnation; we should stop beating ourselves up. It preaches well. However, the internal evidence includes the intended meaning of the word translated “condemnation,” a word which we have already encountered in Romans 5:16 and 18. Does it mean condemnation to hell or something different from that?

2. The Technicality
The most reputable dictionary available on the Greek NT (BDAG) points out a critical difference between two words that play a key role in our understanding of 8:1 in light of 5:16 and 18:

Krima = the courtroom verdict (5:16a) — a statement of one’s legal standing or Position as a result of judgment (= “guilty”)

Katakrima = the sentence handed down (5:16a, 18a) — the Condition that results from the verdict (= incarceration leading to death)

The relationship between krima and katakrima in 5:16 establishes the meaning of katakrima in 8:1, where its use parallels 5:16, 18. The word krima denotes Adam’s “guilty” verdict (5:16a). To be consistent, if Paul had wanted to denote a sense of judicial condemnation in 8:1, he would have used the word krima. So Paul is not alluding to the judicial condemnation we escaped when Christ took on our sins, was found guilty, and died on our behalf. In what sense, then, do we escape condemnation if not by Christ’s judicial condemnation on our behalf?

It is not a statement of Position, but of Condition. We left our Position back in Romans 6. Truly, our Position in Christ is the basis for an abundant life (Rom 6:23). But the basis is not the building; the foundation is not the superstructure. So in Romans 7, Paul was addressing our miserable Condition as we serve the Sin Nature through a misdirected focus on law-keeping. If a Christian pursues life by reverting to the “flesh” in his present experience (6:19; 7:5, 14, 18, 25), the tyranny of his Sin Nature working through the flesh will incur katakrima (“penal servitude,” MM, 327–28), for the wrath of God is poured out impartially against all sin (1:18). Our freedom in Position has already been won by Christ’s death (4:25a), but the man of 7:24 is still in a wretched, enslaved Condition because of the Law of the Flesh (7:25b).

So as we enter Romans 8, Paul anticipates his release from this slavery and praises Jesus Christ (7:25a), the One who delivers us from this Condition by his life (4:25b; 5:9–10). Clearly, Paul is still dealing with our Condition, and the Spirit provides the key to releasing the Christian from his ongoing “penal servitude” according to the flesh. So just as Paul uses “walk” to advance from Position to Condition in Ephesians 4:1, he also uses “walk” in Romans 8:1–4. And — just as in 6:19; 7:5, 14, 18, 25 — “the flesh” should be seen to refer to our continuing human inadequacy or “inability” inherited from Adam and carried forward in this present life (5:12, 19).



 2014/4/9 16:15Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re: There Is Therefore Now No Condemnation

John 15:5-“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

 2014/4/9 16:59Profile









 Re: There Is Therefore Now No Condemnation

Some people see Romans 7 as a regenerate man trying to live under the law, while others see it as an unregenerate man trying to please God by the Law and the only thing he knows, "in the flesh".

Here is the key as I see it:

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

"As long as he liveth". As long as a man lives the law has dominion over him.

In other words, the law will never die and the only way to be free of it is for us to die.

Here is the next part of the puzzle. How do we die and keep on living? Well, Jesus brought that provision for us. We can be free from the law by identifying with Christ in death, and raised to life by His resurrection life, too.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We become dead to the law by the body of Christ.

Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

And we walk in newness of life after we have died with Christ.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

And that is how we are delivered from the law. By the death and resurrection of Christ.

The final key is that we must be IN CHRIST to be freed from the law and the condemnation of it. That is what Romans 6:4 is all about.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN CHRIST Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I would be careful about using non-Biblical terms. Sin Nature is not a Biblical term as it was introduced in the NIV.

Let's look at a couple of verses in the NIV.
1. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, (Col 2:11)

Sinful nature seems to be in the past.

2. So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (Rm 7:25b)

Sinful nature seems to be present.

3. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. (Gal 5:24)

Sinful nature seems to be in the past again.

4. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. (Rm 13:14)

Sinful nature is present, again.

5. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. (Rm 7:5)

Sinful nature is in the past, again.

6. Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Co 5:5)

What's the problem with the NIV?

Paul is actually talking about our flesh (sarx). The word “flesh” refers to our physical bodies or our sensual nature. It’s that part of us that we would describe as natural as opposed to spiritual. Our bodies and our natural senses were given to us by God; we need them to live and to function. Theologians who say that our flesh is inherently evil actually are in agreement with the Roman Catholic Church. Of course we stop short of saying that Jesus was evil (as he had "put on" flesh, too). Yes, the body has appetites but that does not make it sinful. Unnatural appetites (lust, gluttony) are sinful, but being thirsty, or wanting to eat is not sinful. Desiring to lay with your wife and love her is also a God-given desire and there is nothing wrong with that.

Everything God made is good and that includes the flesh. Our bodies express the righteousness of God as He said in the garden, "...it is good". The problems come when we walk after the flesh, when we choose to live in the lower realm of the natural/flesh rather than the higher realm of the spirit. As a sinner, I had no choice in this matter, but as a child of God, born of the spirit, I can choose.

I can walk "after the flesh" or "after the Spirit". Even Jesus had to walk after the Spirit and not give into "walking after the urges, appetites, dictates of the flesh"

This is one of the biggest indications for me how the Roman Catholic Church has made inroads into the Protestant translations of Bibles. Of course, it is in their best interests (in bringing us all back to Rome) to align our doctrines with theirs.

Romans 6, 7, and 8 does not necessarily have to be a chronological biography of Paul's walk. It could easily be 7,6,8. I see Paul in 7 actually flashing back to what it was like being in the flesh, everyday with no hope of getting free of the law.

The false Catholic doctrine of the sinful nature has brought a lot of confusion, hopelessness and defeat into the church.

 2014/4/9 17:34









 Re:

The Lusts of the Flesh versus the Law of Sin and Death


I recall whilst fasting with Martin my former partner in the gospel one time.

Having finished the fast, Martin was momentarily so overwhelmed by the demand from his stomach, that he was literally shaking as he tried to prepare some food. Whilst we were in the Spirit, in a mind to fast and pray, we had absolutely no difficulty with fasting. The moment we ended the fast, the demand from the body was really amazing. I recall standing their in near fits of laughter as I watched Martin setting fire to the frying pan in his uncontrolled efforts to fry an egg. The serious point of course, is to recognise that once he had decided to eat, his body went mad for food. Think Esau!

At the heart of all sin there is a choosing to sin, but there is also a power of sin as well.

This is essentially what Paul is saying in Romans when he speaks about keeping the law of God. He agrees in his inner man that the law of God is good, and he wants to keep the law in agreement with the knowledge that the law of God is good. Then Paul explains that in experience he finds that instead of doing the thing he wants to do, he ends up doing the very thing he doesn’t want to do. In the end Paul says “I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7:23–25

Eating after a fast cannot be sinful, anymore than desiring to obey the law of God and agreeing with it, is sinful. Just as Martin, by agreeing to break his fast, led to a seeming independent action from his enteric nervous system telling his brain to get on with the food preparation quick sharp, resulting in his near inability to actually accomplish the task, so Paul speaks of a power working in the members of the body, which serves to defeat the knowledge of what is a good thing according to the law of God, in experience.

The simple meaning is that if we do desire to do something sinful, we will find that the body will go along with it, without complaint. Likewise when we try to serve God with the mind, we will find that the members of the body will defeat us. The natural mind cannot serve God. It must be a renewed mind, amounting to a renewing of the spirit of the mind. Only then will we know the meaning of the life of Christ working through our minds and bodies, arising from the renewed spirit. What is this law working in the body?

The scripture calls this the law of sin, and it’s outworking is death. This power of sin and death is such that the body itself will always yield to it’s power. In fact there is no possibility that the body will not yield to the law of sin and death as long as we are in our natural minds. Paul tells us in Romans that God gave the Law of commandments precisely to teach us this. Otherwise men would themselves strive to fulfil the Law of God, in the strength of their own will, resulting in no benefit at all. We tend to think about this revelation from Romans 8:1 in the context of our receiving eternal life, or in the context of eternal life itself. We reason that the only purpose in this startling revelation in Romans, concerning the law of sin and death, is so that we can know about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Once we have believed, we imagine that thereafter we will automatically walk in the Spirit and life of Christ Jesus. Such an attitude is perfectly reasonable, but experience will quickly teach us that reality is not thus. If we then go on to reject the teaching that there is no such thing as the law of sin and death working in our members we will have thrown out the one thing which experience does teach us plainly and blame the Roman Catholic Church for a doctrine which we insist was their invention.

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Romans 8:2–4

There is no doubt that the fuller meaning of this passage from Roman 8:1-3 is to teach us something about the accomplishment of Christ concerning eternal life. Yet the Scripture shows that the underlying reality spoken in the words “law of sin and of death” are also central to its meaning. We cannot throw away the part we find difficult to understand.

For the purposes of this study it is this matter of the law of sin and of death working in the members of the body, which I want to lay hold off.

“knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.” Romans 6:6–7,

A Difference of Meaning

In this passage of Scripture, Paul identifies two distinct entities. The first is the “old man” and the second is the “body of sin”. It is the body of sin which I want to draw attention to. Some brethren say that the body of sin is the same in meaning as the old man. I have to say however that this cannot be precisely true. It is true, that the old man, is all that which is inherited, and therefore which was true of our forefather Adam. It is not true to say that when we were born ourselves physically, we were somehow born with a crucified benefit in our lives, which is the other side of it’s meaning when speaking of this Scripture. Therefore if the old man is crucified in Christ, we would have to ask, what to answer, to the problem of the law of sin and death working in our members.

The “old man”, Paul says, is crucified in Christ. As this must be true, then we must ask, in what way does this benefit of inclusion in Christ’s death on the cross, become ours? It could only be after we were born of our father and mother. It could not be prior to this time because until we are physically born we cannot benefit experientially from anything at all. The answer to this question relies on a proper identification of the meaning of the second part of Romans 6:6 where we read about the “body of sin”. This Body” is the sarx or flesh which is the same word, flesh or fleshy, used in all of the scriptures under the header “The Testimony of Scripture” (above) in the body of the article. In simplicity the body of sin is the physical body itself.

There is another thought or revelation which we need to consider in this as well. When we speak about the “old man” we are definitely speaking about our physical inheritance, our very DNA which we received from Adam. We are however, not speaking about being Adam personally. Adam was an individual. We are ourselves individuals. We share the same physical substance that Adam had in his own body. What we cannot be is Adam himself. Adam was an individual, he was a man with his own personality and his own life. It is also correct to speak about the soul itself (volition, cognition and emotion), as the same soul in substance of image and likeness, which Adam had. What we cannot say, is that we are ourselves, Adam. We are not Adam, we are ourselves. And whilst we share the very same nature as Adam, both morally, physically, psychically and spiritually, we are in our essential beings unique. This is incredibly important to realise. It may seem somewhat obvious a thing to say, or else we may disagree in some way. Regardless of this, the significance of saying it, is not so obvious at all.

When Paul speaks of the “old man” and the “body of sin” he is making this distinction; albeit indirectly. The practical meaning of this is that Paul is pointing to the fact that whilst the “old man” is crucified in Christ, we have our very own bodies. Adam is not represented in us, we ourselves were represented in him when he sinned. Similarly Christ was not represented in us when he died, it is we who are represented in Christ. In just the same way that to benefit from this representation in Christ after we are born of water and Spirit, so must we see that in our own bodes (not Adam’s body) we are born in sin by representation. The evidence of this according to Paul is the power of sin working in our members. The instant we put this to the test and seek to obey the law of God, sin has its dominion over us and we die.

It is therefore absolutely necessary to comprehend and fully, that in reality of experience, the power of sin works through the members of our bodies and not simply in our soul’s directly, as though it were the soul itself which supplies the natural body with its lusts and passions. Although our souls are implicated in sin, through the heart, it is by consenting to sin, or agreeing to sin, or having a mind or heart to sin, that facilities the power of sin working in the members of our body to produce its inevitable consequence of sinning. In this arrangement our very soul itself, mind, emotions and the will, are taken prisoner to the body of sin, by consent. The body of sin can be freed from the power of sin and death through experiential identification with the cross unto death, and the soul can be freed from the restraints of the body itself, not by “self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body” but by resting in the finished work of the cross, by faith.

The basis for this liberation in the first instance, is the cross, and our inclusion in Christ, as the inclusion of the old man of Adam. The outworking of this liberty, is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which we receive into ourselves when we first received Christ Himself by faith, and were born again.

From an article published on the internet

 2014/4/9 19:11









 Re: There Is Therefore Now No Condemnation

TrueWitness: so simply yielding each decision to the holy Spirit solves the problem with the flesh?

 2014/4/9 20:47
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 Re:

Until we die physically or Jesus comes back and glorifies our bodies, whichever comes first, we will have to deal with our "flesh" on a moment by moment basis. Sanctification is both an event and a process. It begins at the new birth and our spirit becomes instantly and totally holy and pure. Then thereafter we progressively work out practically sanctification of our soul and spirit as our minds are renewed according to the truth of all that is ours in Christ and our union with Him. The Holy Spirit applies the truth of our already completed death with Christ and resurrection from death into newness of life with Him on a moment-by-moment basis. Our responsibility is to trust the new life we have in Him and die to all self-will and self-pleasing in ourselves. As you die to the self-life and trust in and follow the leading of the Spirit you will find the life of the resurrected Lord coming to live in and through you. Unless a grain of wheat dies, it abides alone. But if it dies, it produces a manifold harvest.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 2014/4/9 21:15Profile
a-servant
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

"so simply yielding each decision to the holy Spirit solves the problem with the flesh?"

no, it's about:

Romans 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

it's about 'walk after' - that's 1 tiny but essential step after yielding to a decision. Can you see it?

 2014/4/9 21:16Profile









 Re:

I would be remiss if I did not let people know that Zondervan did update their 2011 version. Most occurrences of "sinful nature" have become "flesh". They decided to use the same English word for sarx found in the KJV and nearly every other English Bible. I applaud the change as it is a good one.

If you look at Romans 13:14 on the latest version of the NIV at Bible Gateway, you will notice that it now says this:

“Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.”

Unfortunately, old habits are hard to change. In the footnote the verse is qualified by the following:

“In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013:14&version=NIV

They have improved just a bit (we have gone from having a sinful nature to living in a sinful state).

If the flesh is inherently sinful then the Lord Jesus was sinful, but He wasn't or it (flesh) wasn't. If you review the verse again, the problem is not the flesh but gratifying it's desires outside of the boundaries of your relationship with the Holy Spirit. Most of our problems that beset us are from an un-renewed thinking/mind, not our corruptible flesh. Our bodies left alone with no mind or will is amoral. Just a container. It is an unrenewed mind that engages its will to direct the body to fulfill the desires of the flesh. We are not trapped in a sinful state. We are new creations. Jesus had all the same desires of the flesh that you and I have, yet He never sinned. Now Christ is our life (Col 3:4). We occupy the same sort of flesh that Jesus had. We can live the overcoming, victorious life, the same as Jesus, but not by trying harder in the flesh. The life we now live, we live by the faith of the Son of God. Christ lives in us and as we walk after the Spirit and renew our mind (we are called to do that), we will go from faith to faith and glory to glory in our walk. Always dependent on Him and never thinking we have arrived. There is no condemnation and guilt to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, and are now walking after the Spirit and not the flesh, anymore.

 2014/4/9 21:21
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re: There Is Therefore Now No Condemnation

Thank you truewitness for sharing this view. I agree with it. If we consider living by flesh as cancer then ''no condemnation" (justification) means to escape death by cancer. Many Christians are happy to escape death by cancer. That is why they think of Romans 8:1 as condomnation for the way they live. But if a person truley hates this cancer then he will want to be healed from this cancer first. He does not want to anymore live under this condition of cancer which is making him weak. So for such a person Romans 8:1 is Jesus freeing him from this condition of being lead by flesh.


_________________
Sreeram

 2014/4/9 22:57Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: And in real life...

An excellent point, Just-in, that if flesh were in itself sinful, Jesus would have been a sinner too just for moving about in a human body. The alternative would be that Jesus was never really a man, and unqualified to render His life as a propitiation for sin. We would be without hope, still in need of a savior.

Jesus was without moral depravity, but he consigned Himself to take on a body with physical depravity, able to hurt and able to die. The excuse for sin remains empty, all of us are accountable to the law of God.

I was however moved by Andrew's description of the incredible power of fleshly desire, the double whammy of the choice of sin and the power of sin. I do concur!

That sneaky little verse in Genesis is a reminder- in God's conversation with Cain (Gen 4:7) He tells him that sin lurks by the door and its desire is to take control- "But you must master it!"



Had an interesting event last Monday evening at "Special Needs" church. The visiting pastor conducting the service had everybody come forward for a ministry time in the front of the church. We all went up there. One young man began to listen to one of the special needs guys who is older, and he began to tell the poor young kid about his upcoming surgery and a bunch of other dramatic nonsense I knew to be false.

I confronted the man, and told him he must tell the truth here, and began essentially telling the spirit in him that only truth could come out of this mouth. Nothing would come! I encouraged the man to speak, to tell some truth... whereupon the fellow turned and flashed me a look I know too well. Unable to be honest with God, the demon chose retreat.

The rather surprised young man wondered what was going on, and we had a little conversation about dealing with demons. The old man comes regularly to church and I am hoping for a window of deliverance but it isn't open yet. He needs to want salvation, and has not yet voiced that.

But when I told the young man about how the Power of Christ works in deliverance I mentioned that to engage a demon one must be completely clear with God, and not be holding any secret sin. Demons can take hold of that and destroy a deliverance session in a heartbeat.

Minutes later, the young guy was ready to confess- he had some secret sin, and he wanted out of it!

We had a great ministry session, but I am still waiting to do some serious work with the old guy.

I admit I absolutely love taking the things we learn here out onto the street where real people need the real Jesus. Keep it coming!


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/4/9 23:26Profile





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