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PosterThread
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1414


 Re:

Hi All,
May I add one thing.I am not a bank manager or accountant.At best if it would be an educated guess what 10 percent is.
I would have to put myself under bondage to figure out the exact figure is.I wouldnt have the time
Yours Staff

 2014/4/8 19:51Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

My post was more of a personal testimony. I found that when I wasn't disciplined about giving to the Lord I just didn't do it, or at least I did so very meagerly. And i justified it by reasoning that I worked with the youth group and taught bible studies. But I knew I should have been giving more.

Each person can do what he/she feels led to do. But I think that God wants us to have a loose hold of our stuff.

We can say that God doesn't need our money, but really He does. That is how he arranged things. Money buys Bibles, funds missionaries, buys and maintains internet servers, feeds the poor, etc. of course it also buys a lot of silly things that churches think they need.

My point is that God expects his people to give to the cause. I don't see how anyone can escape that conclusion from reading the NT. Yes, we are to give in all sorts of ways. But money is one thing that God gives us to steward and he expects us to invest in His Kingdom. How much? That depends- how much is His Kingdom worth?


_________________
Todd

 2014/4/8 20:02Profile









 Re:

I have always found it quite brazen regarding the liberties that the religious system takes in prying into the private matters of their members.

I also think it quite telling that money is probably one of the top 3 topics in religion.

I find it odd and spiritually abnormal to talk to born-again believers on a regular basis about what they give, how much and how frequent. I cannot remember one time in our home church where we talked about money. That is a private matter between spouses and if you are not married, it is still your private matter. It is repugnant to me to pry into someone's financial matters or tell them how much they should be giving. Somehow, the head of a religious organization feels the liberty to do such a thing.

 2014/4/8 20:36
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3228
Texas

 Re:

If anyone wants to read it, a bud I used to go to Church with wrote a book on tithing.

http://www.emeraldministries.com/Books/A_Christian_and_Tithing.pdf


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2014/4/8 21:19Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1710


 Re:

Quote:

And then God spoke to my heart one day and forever settled the matter for me. He told me that if I could read the New Testament of Jesus Christ in its entirety (from Matthew to Revelation) as an early Greek or African believer would have in the beginning, and come away with a propulsion to tithe (considering I even knew what tithing was), then, of course, I was to tithe as an act of faith. Light came to me immediately on the subject.



I count my self blessed in this matter. I was raised as a Hindu with no understanding of Christianity until I turned 25. I started reading the Bible starting from New Testament. I did not attend any VBS or Christian education in my childhood that would have introduced me to this OT stories. I started reading OT only after finishing NT. Hence when I read OT I can clearly see it as a shadow of NT. I could clearly see it as a symbol of NT. I was never carried away by any OT law.


_________________
Sreeram

 2014/4/9 1:27Profile









 Re:

The Holy Spirit promised to lead us into all truth. He is a faithful Teacher. Men, oftentimes lead us away from truth.

His sheep hear His voice and another they will not follow. What does that say about thousands...millions...that are following men?

 2014/4/9 8:40
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I've done the math... a family of 4 making $50,000 a year or less probably cannot afford to tithe... contrary to preachers telling them "you can't afford not to tithe".

http://kingjimmyunauthorized.blogspot.com/2014/04/you-probably-cant-afford-to-tithe.html

Many pastors have been known to boldly stand in the pulpit and proclaim, "You can't afford not to tithe!"

Many of these pastors have never sat down and tried to make a budget with the people they are preaching to. They've never sat down and done the math.

As I will demonstrate in this brief essay, the average family of 4 making $50,000 a year probably cannot afford to tithe.

The financial assumptions I am making in this essay assumes a family of 4, where the husband is the sole wage earner in the family, and where the wife is a full-time stay at home mother who stays home to take care of the kids. I assume they own 1 car outright, and have an auto loan on another. I assume they have a mortgage that is reflective of 25% of their gross monthly income (which is pretty common). Because it is the law of the land, I am operating under the assumption the household is fully insured. I assume this family has no credit card, student loan, or medical debts. I assume this family is not making any contributions to retirement savings.

Since I personally live and work in the greater Charlotte, North Carolina area, I am going to assume taxes and living expenses that are in keeping with a person who lives in the suburbs of my living area. I work as a mortgage underwriter for a living, so some of my assumptions come from being regularly exposed to the personal finances of a lot of people, as well as the general lending standards of most banks. Please feel free to adjust these expenses based on where you live to see if what I say pans out.

Using the PaycheckCity.com calculator, I have determined that a married man living and working in North Carolina making a fixed salary of $50,000 a year will gross $961.54 a week before taxes/social security, and will net $738.58 after. His gross monthly income ($961.54 x 52 / 12) is $4,166.67, and his monthly take home pay is $3,200.51.

Monthly Gross: $4,166.67
Monthly Net: $3,200.51

Itemized expenses:
Tithe 10%: $416.67
Mortgage payment: $1,041.67
Groceries: $850.00
Water Bill: $50.00
Electric Bill: $150.00
Gas bill: $50.00
Home/Cell Phones: $150.00
Clothing: $50.00
Auto Loan: $200.00
Auto Insurance: $100.00
Auto Gas: $100.00
Auto Maintenance (Tires/Oil/Taxes/Inspections): $150
Health/dental/vision insurance: $200.00
Miscellaneous: $100.00
Total monthly expenses: $3,608.34

Monthly budget deficit: -$407.83

Based off these rough, and rather conservative monthly budget figures that I used, I have concluded that the average family of 4 living in the greater Charlotte, North Carolina area making $50,000 a year simply cannot afford to tithe. Without their tithe, this family of 4 would be lucky to break even on a monthly basis. They don't even have room for regular monthly savings, let alone money to contribute to a retirement account.

In order to pay their tithe, this family would ultimately be forced to skip out on some other bills in order to make the math work, or they would be forced to radically downsize their current lifestyle... which is already pretty conservative.

So the next time a preacher tells you that you can't afford not to tithe, ask to sit down with them and work out a budget with you, and ask him how this math works. Because as far as I'm concerned, as somebody who crunches numbers for a living, I do not believe that the average family of 4 that is lower middle class and below can actually afford to tithe on a monthly basis, and still stick to their monthly budget.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2014/4/9 9:22Profile









 Re: Tithing Quotes

There is something sinister and despicable about using "fear preaching" to separate a family or individual from their hard earned gain.

Quotes from Richard Garganta:

"For the wealthy to feel the same sacrifice as a poor person giving 10% of their income, a wealthy person would have to give perhaps upwards of 90% or more of their income, depending."

"Many church leaders today seem content with preaching a mixed message as to whether tithing is obligatory or not. They want to keep that subtle guilt in the atmosphere."

"The reality is many mandated tithing teachers don't care how "corrupted" the seed is so long as they get it."

"Many teach that tithing is a form of "protection money" that will insure them against harm, accidents or other calamities of life."

"To teach that giving tithes and offerings a certain way is going to guarantee a particular situation in life is immature and unscriptural."

"Many of today's "cushioned" preachers are arrogant. Some even look down on the less fortunate thinking they have not been obedient or haven't yet caught "the revelation" of prosperity. These preachers forget it is many of these same people that make their lifestyles possible."

"This is what we tell everyone that becomes saved? The sacrifice of Christ isn't enough? Christ removed all but the "financial curse?" This is heretical nonsense."

"Sometimes modern day Christianity looks like nothing more than success coaching with a Christian wrapper."

"Many tithing Christians will tithe out of fear of the misappropriated "Malachi Curse" ignoring the fact their neighbor is in need. These Christians are thinking that when they get their "windfall" from tithing, they will then help the needy."

"We now have countless huge edifices and all types of major Christian media networks etc. With all of this building of things, is Christianity better off?"

"The Bible teaches there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with properly obtained prosperity or success provided it is properly handled. I pray we all attain it via right living, faith, Grace and Love, NOT law, fear, condemnation, deceit or corrupt teaching of scripture and manipulating money out of people."

"You can't "put God first" by neglecting the poor and needy, vows, responsibilities or commitments. If that is what you're doing, it isn't because you are putting God first. It is because you're hoping God will be impressed enough with you and your giving to give you a windfall financial blessing."

"It can be very beneficial to those damaged by abusive spiritual leaders to find their way back to true giving from the heart, without manipulation and for the right reason. THAT is the ultimate purpose of this document. It gives damaged people a framework to begin healing. Nothing proposed here is obligatory, oppresses the poor or involves curses or condemnation if not followed."

Quotes from Richard Garganta: http://tithinginfo.com/

Russell Kelly has a slight disagreement with Richard regarding Abrahamic giving (I agree with Russell) but other than that they are in full agreement. Russell Kelly's site: http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/


 2014/4/9 9:58









 Re:

And how do you explain these verses.......

Prov. 3:9-10
Honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of all your produce,

So your barns will be filled with plenty and your vats will overflow with new wine.

Luke 6:38
Give and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure---pressed, down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.

2 Cor. 9:8-9
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; for as it is written,

HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR.
HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ENDURES FOREVER.

2 Cor. 9:10-11
Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply.and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness, you will be enriched in everything for all liberality,

Phil. 4:17
Not that I seek the gift itself, but I seek for the prophet which increase to your account.

Bearmaster.

 2014/4/9 10:33









 Re:

Luke 21:1-4
And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury. And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins. And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; for they all out of their surplus put into the offering, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on."

I guess the poor widow did not have someone to help her plan a budget. :)

Bearnaster.

 2014/4/9 10:50





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