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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Today's Great Deception Built on the Deception of the 80's and 90's

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Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 512
America's Heartand

 Re:

Just-in stated the following as a means of testing an angelic visitation.

Quote:

1. Are the angels identified by non-biblical names?
2. Are the angels given non-biblical descriptions?
3. Are they performing roles beyond biblical context?
4. Are they sources of additional revelatoin beyond biblical content?
5. Are they in any way proclaiming another gospel?



While I certainly agree that people can be deceived by giving heed to evil spirits and not discerning their source it also seems to me that the steps you give are far to constricting to allow for legitimate encounters sent by God Himself.

Please allow me to just throw back a few questions in regard to your steps -

1. Are the angels identified by non-biblical names?
We only have a few angels actually listed by name in scripture. We also know from scripture that the total number of angels is incredibly large. It is obvious that unless God sent one of a very few we would not know their name from scripture. That does not make all the remaining angels messengers of satan ... the ones serving God are His messengers. Where in scripture does it anywhere indicate that unless an angel is called by one of just a couple names you should reject them?

2. Are the angels given non-biblical descriptions?
Not entirely sure what you mean by this one. However I am assuming that unless they physically appear to the human eye at that moment the way one of the angelic host is described in scripture they should be regarded as demons and devils. Again, where in all of scripture is that idea drawn from? There may indeed be millions of "types" of angels that we have no knowledge of at all. There is nothing in scripture to indicate that we have anything like a full revelation of the angelic realm and all the created order in it that God established. I am not necessarily saying He did create myriads of other angelic forms we do not know about yet .... but neither can I, or you, say He didn't. That is pure presumption.

3. Are they performing roles beyond biblical context?
Again, not entirely sure what you mean by that. Could you give an example? We see angels performing miracles by God's direction, warring, delivering saints, executing judgement, giving specific life instructions, and a great many other functions. Not sure what you are meaning on this point? Maybe an example could help me understand?

4. Are they sources of additional revelatoin beyond biblical content?
Well I should certainly think so. This would be especially true if they were sent to give life guidance to a person. This happened several times in scripture. If a decision were important enough to send an angelic confirmation I suspect it WOULD be beyond Biblical content. For example .... who you marry, ministry you are involved in, country you should live in, town you should live in, employment you are to be involved in, people and traps the enemy may have set in your life to destroy you are all examples of critical information that is extra Biblical. The scripture does not address those things specifically to your circumstances. You have to get that information directly from God Himself, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. Perhaps they may send angelic confirmation in especially critical times ... but it would certainly be revelation beyond Biblical content.
-- HOWEVER --- IF THE REVELATION IN ANY WAY CONTRADICTS BIBLICAL CONTENT THEN IT IS CLEARLY DEMONIC. The Spirit and The Word agree. If an angel brings a message not in line with scriptural content then it is to be totally rejected without any question. I am just noting that knowledge beyond Biblical revelation is not the same thing as revelation that contradicts Biblical content.

5. Are they in any way proclaiming another gospel?
I am in 100% total, absolute, and complete agreement with that.


I have been more concerned as of late about folks seeking to take command of "their angels" and issue commands to them. NO WAY IS THAT HAPPENING!

Angels are servants of The Most High God and do not take orders from anyone else ... period. I can tell you will all knowledge and certainly that if you have actually seen a few you will never, ever, ever presume to issue orders to them. Their presence still pulsating and humming with the glory of God (much as Moses face after being on the mountain I have thought) will absolutely remind you that they serve The Father and no one else.... as we are to do as well. They are my teammates .... my fellow soldiers. However, they fight alongside me with eyes that see far more than mine. At times God gives messages to me through them. It is always a personalizing in my life of what he has already spoken in scripture. For example ... we are to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. An angel might appear to me and give me specific direction about a person I will meet in town tomorrow. I am to share my faith with him and buy him lunch. That opens the doors to his salvation. All the angel did was deliver a message to me on how to specifically apply God's truth to the world I am living in right now.

I am not being argumentative at all. Hopefully that comes through in the tenor of my post. However, if you will consider your original criteria for evaluation an angelic visitation and my responsive questions you will see that there is a much wider place for angelic revelation than is being supposed.


 2014/4/8 20:26Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by Solomon101 on 2014/4/8 20:26:26

Just-in stated the following as a means of testing an angelic visitation.
Quote:

1. Are the angels identified by non-biblical names?
2. Are the angels given non-biblical descriptions?
3. Are they performing roles beyond biblical context?
4. Are they sources of additional revelatoin beyond biblical content?
5. Are they in any way proclaiming another gospel?



While I certainly agree that people can be deceived by giving heed to evil spirits and not discerning their source it also seems to me that the steps you give are far to constricting to allow for legitimate encounters sent by God Himself.

Please allow me to just throw back a few questions in regard to your steps -



Great questions, Solomon. But, these steps were derived from the Scriptures. Let me explain (read on).

Quote:
1. Are the angels identified by non-biblical names?
We only have a few angels actually listed by name in scripture. We also know from scripture that the total number of angels is incredibly large. It is obvious that unless God sent one of a very few we would not know their name from scripture. That does not make all the remaining angels messengers of satan ... the ones serving God are His messengers. Where in scripture does it anywhere indicate that unless an angel is called by one of just a couple names you should reject them?



I almost want to say, "Michael I know and Gabriel I know but Moroni and Chroni, sorry, I don't know you". All I can say is that every new Angel name that I have heard, has been accompanied with false doctrine. Has anyone else heard of a new name that did not bring another gospel? And why would the Lord do that? It would be confusing and contradictory regarding His 4,000 years of interaction between Men and God. Strange indeed if He introduced a new angel in the age of deception the likes of which the world has never known.

Quote:
2. Are the angels given non-biblical descriptions?
Not entirely sure what you mean by this one. However I am assuming that unless they physically appear to the human eye at that moment the way one of the angelic host is described in scripture they should be regarded as demons and devils. Again, where in all of scripture is that idea drawn from? There may indeed be millions of "types" of angels that we have no knowledge of at all. There is nothing in scripture to indicate that we have anything like a full revelation of the angelic realm and all the created order in it that God established. I am not necessarily saying He did create myriads of other angelic forms we do not know about yet .... but neither can I, or you, say He didn't. That is pure presumption.



Charles and Francis Hunter said they knew where their angel was standing, how tall he was (20feet) and what color suit (blue) he was wearing. Yes, it is true that angels have many names and probably can appear with blue suits, but, God has given us enough parameters within His Word and I am confident He is not going to pull a fast one on us and have De'Andre show up in a glimmering tux. But, the Word of Faith guys will probably disagree. Again, God is not an Author of confusion and has given us parameters surrounded by 4,000 years of interaction with men. Also, Angels don't draw attention to themselves by wearing Armani suits.

Quote:
3. Are they performing roles beyond biblical context?
Again, not entirely sure what you mean by that. Could you give an example? We see angels performing miracles by God's direction, warring, delivering saints, executing judgement, giving specific life instructions, and a great many other functions. Not sure what you are meaning on this point? Maybe an example could help me understand?



God does not send angels to have in depth conversations with His children. Do we see any examples of this in the Bible?

From "Angels on Assignment".

Gabriel had just introduced Roland Buck to Chroni and this exchange takes place.
"One night while Gabriel and Chroni were taking to me, there suddenly appeared a bluish shaft of pure 
light about eighteen inches in diameter from the ceiling to the floor of our study room. The instant the 
light appeared, both angels fell prostrate on the floor. They stayed in a prone position for at least five 
minutes without a single motion or sound. I didn't know what to do, so I fell on my hands and knees 
and worshipped God. They never told me what this was, but I feel that just as a bright light appeared  to Saul on the road to Damascus, this also could have been an appearance of Jesus in the form of a 
bright light. It was awesome to me!"

Roland Buck has no idea what he bowed to. He was never told what he bowed to. He just bowed.


Quote:
4. Are they sources of additional revelation beyond biblical content?
Well I should certainly think so. This would be especially true if they were sent to give life guidance to a person. This happened several times in scripture. If a decision were important enough to send an angelic confirmation I suspect it WOULD be beyond Biblical content. For example .... who you marry, ministry you are involved in, country you should live in, town you should live in, employment you are to be involved in, people and traps the enemy may have set in your life to destroy you are all examples of critical information that is extra Biblical. The scripture does not address those things specifically to your circumstances. You have to get that information directly from God Himself, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. Perhaps they may send angelic confirmation in especially critical times ... but it would certainly be revelation beyond Biblical content.
-- HOWEVER --- IF THE REVELATION IN ANY WAY CONTRADICTS BIBLICAL CONTENT THEN IT IS CLEARLY DEMONIC. The Spirit and The Word agree. If an angel brings a message not in line with scriptural content then it is to be totally rejected without any question. I am just noting that knowledge beyond Biblical revelation is not the same thing as revelation that contradicts Biblical content.



You answered your own question which signified that you knew what I was saying.

Quote:
5. Are they in any way proclaiming another gospel?
I am in 100% total, absolute, and complete agreement with that.



Amen!


Quote:
I have been more concerned as of late about folks seeking to take command of "their angels" and issue commands to them. NO WAY IS THAT HAPPENING!



I find it interesting that you seemed to have had many experiences with angels. Are these experiences you can share? Do they build up the Body of Christ? Were they edifying?

Quote:
Angels are servants of The Most High God and do not take orders from anyone else ... period. I can tell you will all knowledge and certainly that if you have actually seen a few you will never, ever, ever presume to issue orders to them. Their presence still pulsating and humming with the glory of God (much as Moses face after being on the mountain I have thought) will absolutely remind you that they serve The Father and no one else.... as we are to do as well. They are my teammates .... my fellow soldiers. However, they fight alongside me with eyes that see far more than mine. At times God gives messages to me through them. It is always a personalizing in my life of what he has already spoken in scripture. For example ... we are to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. An angel might appear to me and give me specific direction about a person I will meet in town tomorrow. I am to share my faith with him and buy him lunch. That opens the doors to his salvation. All the angel did was deliver a message to me on how to specifically apply God's truth to the world I am living in right now.

I am not being argumentative at all. Hopefully that comes through in the tenor of my post. However, if you will consider your original criteria for evaluation an angelic visitation and my responsive questions you will see that there is a much wider place for angelic revelation than is being supposed.



Thanks for sharing, Solomon. I did not take anything that you said as argumentative. They were very good questions. Have you submitted your experiences with Angels to the Body to check if anyone else has a witness to your experiences?

 2014/4/8 21:08









 Re:

As you read Roland Buck's book, Angels on Assignment, you
will realize many things, and one thing that keeps popping
up is how "sensual" or "feeling" oriented, Roland is.

"Some of the unique experiences God has blessed me with are so 
unbelievable from our human viewpoint that I am often hesitant to share
them publicly. Here is one of them: During a visit one night, Gabriel said 
that God had sent me a little gift for my strength and energy as he handed
me a round wafer approximately five inches in diameter and a quarter
inch thick, that looked like bread. He instructed me to eat it; so I did. It 
had the taste of honey. When I finished the bread, he gave me a silver­like
ladle filled with what appeared to be water. I drank every drop of it, and an
overwhelming desire to praise and worship God instantly came over me. 
Rivers of praise billowed up to God, bubbling up out of my inne[rmost 
being, and for days after I drank this liquid, there was a sensation of 
"fizzing" inside of my veins. What an indescribably pleasant and 
exhilarating feeling it was! The effects were astounding because the first 
day after I ate the wafer and drank the water, I LOST FIVE POUNDS! The 
second day I  LOST ANOTHER FIVE POUNDS! The third and fourth days ANOTHER 
FIVE POUNDS EACH DAY! Then it tapered off to about a pound a day. I had an 
excess of "flab," and that is all gone now. When I jogged 
prior to this, I quickly became winded, but now I have no breath shortage at 
all. My strength and stamina have been fantastic!"

This quote revolves around his flesh and nothing about his inner-man. And how
special are we, that God will send Gabriel who announced the glad tidings of
Christ, and was sent to Daniel to make him understand the vision, to deliver
a wafer to a man? Or, you might ask, what did Gabriel do to become the wafer
delivery boy? Either way, it's completely not believable and does not witness
with my spirit.

Another angel, named "Queenie" is introduced. (I guess she is the Queenie of Heaven).

"Many people have asked me if Gabriel had said anything about the return of 
Christ. He hadn't, so I  asked him if he could tell me anything about it. He 
replied that Jesus is returning, but the time is something that God has reserved 
in his own knowledge. Gabriel has access to the timetable on everything 
else that has been predicted, but God has kept this particular secret to himself. 
Then he said to me, "I can tell you this: there has never been such 
excitement and activity in the courts of heaven since Jesus came the first time 
as there is right now!" Hallelujah! These angels spoke in a heavenly 
language and were constantly picking up messages from the Spirit.  Often when 
they would pick up reports, they would laugh and become extremely happy. 
Obviously, these were reports of great victories that they were celebrating. 

As Gabriel was talking with me, Chroni, the other angel, played with Queenie, 
tickling her ears, getting her on her back and having fun with her. Queenie 
lapped it up! I wish she could talk because I would like to know what her 
impressions were. She has had the rare experience for a dog, and acted as 
though 
she thought it was really great! Gabriel went to the door and reached for 
the knob. He said he had to leave because of an urgent call of the Spirit, but 
he said, "I have asked Chroni to stay here with you during this time while 
I am gone. I'll  be back shortly." It was so strange, because while I WAS LOOKING 
AT HIM, HE JUST VANISHED INTO THIN AIR. There was no flash, no sounds, no nothing. 
He just disappeared! One minute I was talking with a very solid, muscular 
individual, and the next instant there was nothing! All I could see was the place 
where he had been standing! He had completely vanished!"

Hmmmm, Gabriel went for the door and reached for the knob, but then just decided
to disappear.

 2014/4/8 23:51
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 512
America's Heartand

 Re:

Hey Just-in,

I just have a moment this morning to post. However, I will hopefully get a few minutes free perhaps late tonight or tomorrow morning to focus on this issue a bit more.

I was at first encouraged to read your quote

Quote:
Great questions, Solomon. But, these steps were derived from the Scriptures. Let me explain (read on).



I then was disappointed to see that does not appear to be what happened.

I asked specific questions concerning the 5 steps you gave for criteria in evaluation of an angelic visitation. We fully agree on your 5th step. The other 4 are lacking scriptural backing in my estimation therefore I asked those questions. Your answers did not give any scriptural backing for your steps at all!

You gave a couple of general quips to my questions on steps 1 and 2. Questions asked about steps 2 and 3 were answered with quotes from books by the Hunter's and Roland Buck it seems. My questions to step 4 is one I didn't understand your response to. I did understand the step however I also raised some specific thoughts and questions about it. What was your response to those objections to your step? As stated, I fully agree with your 5th step. We are in full agreement there. We have a common ground to look at the issue from.

Just-in I was disappointed to see that your steps were not backed by even one single scripture in response to my questions after that was what you had suggested. I wonder .... how much actual deep Biblical research have you actually performed on this topic before formulating your opinions? The reason I ask is that your responses seem lacking in scripture and long on Roland Buck and the Hunters quotes. I can't ever remember actually reading anything written by the Hunters. I may have but if so it has been 25+ years or more ago ... and if so I don't remember it. I did read Roland Buck's book but it has been some 20+ years ago. I remember bits and pieces... but again... 20+ years is a long time to think back on a books contents so I am not sure about his statements. However, I actually could not care less what Roland Buck or the Hunters said. They are people that may or may not have had the experiences they report. I don't know them or their personal integrity. Being so unfamiliar with their writings theological implications means I would be foolish to have an opinion of something I don't know well first hand.

Scripturally though that is another matter.

Just-in I would encourage you to go through the entirety of scripture and record every angelic encounter that was recorded. Keep a running journal of it during the study. Ask lots of questions about it from the text. Don't just take the surface glossing but really dig. Keep a log of each event and the results you find from Genesis - Revelation. I believe it will alter your 5 steps of evaluation. That is how I got my understanding of angelic activity. Every verse of scripture in its context. Everyone has an opinion .. but few have an opinion based upon the entirety of God's Word taken in balance and context with all of scripture. They are to lazy to dig that out ... but more than ready to spout opinions based on presumptions, etc.

Let me just give you an example of what I am talking about concerning getting an accurate full Biblical understanding in this area -

You stated
Quote:
God does not send angels to have in depth conversations with His children. Do we see any examples of this in the Bible?



Even if God did not record any instances of "in depth" conversations in scripture do you have even one shred of evidence from scripture where God indicated He could or would not at His pleasure send an angel to have that in depth conversation? That position is based on pure assumption that dictates to God what you believe He can or can't do. He will do as He pleases regardless of what we think about it. If He wants an in depth angelic conversation who are you to say He can't ... and ultimately scripture does not anywhere indicate that He won't at his pleasure send an angel for an in depth conversation. Further .... to answer your question directly ... YES, we do see examples of these lengthy in depth angelic encounters in scripture. That is why I made the earlier suggestion about a full cataloging of angelic encounters from scripture. I could list them here ... but that wouldn't help. Find them on your own as you explore for truth if you truly want truth in this area. I may list some of the things from scripture that are in opposition to your steps... depending on how the conversation goes ... but nothing is as helpful as digging things out on our own ... if we really want the truth and not just to defend a point of view. I pray you want truth. You have made some statements in this thread that claim to be "steps for evaluation of angelic encounters". Few people can ever back up and change a view once stated for others. I don't know you and your heart in that area. I pray it is open to change .... I pray mine is open to always learning more .... even if it means admitting I was mistaken in an area. I pray you feel the same.

One final thing. You stated in your last post,
Quote:
Another angel, named "Queenie" is introduced. (I guess she is the Queenie of Heaven).



That rang a bell with me. However, it has been a couple decades since I read Buck's book so I just Googled it up to be sure.

Queenie was Roland Buck's dog! Queenie was not an angel or ever called one in Buck's book. If you are reading a book thinking a guy is writing about angels when he is writing about his dog no wonder there is confusion.

It honestly seems like you have an axe to grind with Buck and/or the Hunter's. They are the majority of what you are quoting .... not scripture. Perhaps they, or others in their camps, did you wrong or hurt you in some way. If so I am sorry ... it happens to us all at some point in life. However, if that is the case I encourage you to not let that be a framework for your beliefs. Don't let your beliefs become reactionary. Let God's Word alone be the framework.... even if it takes you to places you thought it would not. If you truly dig in this area you may well find that the scripture depicts something different than you have seen thus far.

We agree in your 5th step completely. However, if it can be civil I would be willing to explore those other 4 steps from different perspectives. I would also welcome any scriptural responses to the questions I asked. Question 4 as well .... your thoughts in regards to what I posted. Yes, I understood your statement but my response brings that statement/step into question.

Again, not being argumentative or contentious at all. I am just seeing the steps you gave for judging angelic encounters and they appear to be lacking in scriptural authority. That is why I raised the questions and waited for Biblical answers. Angelology is not a front burner major issue Biblically. However, it is also one that has much error and is on many peoples minds at the moment so an exploration of it seems appropriate.

Have a great day and blessings to you!


 2014/4/9 9:40Profile









 Re: Today's Great Deception Built on the Deception of the 80's and 90'

Angels, as God’s Servants


Angels have specific yet limited roles to play in declaring God’s will and purposes for humanity.

Angels are God’s servants
Ps 103:20 See also Heb 1:7; Ps 104:4

Named angels
The archangel Michael: Da 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev 12:7
Gabriel: Da 8:16; 9:21; Lk 1:19,26

Angels as agents of God’s salvation
Heb 1:14 See also Ex 23:23; 32:34; 33:2; Nu 20:16; Isa 63:8-9

Angels do not fully understand God’s salvation 1Pe 1:10-12

Angels deliver God’s people from their enemies 2Ki 19:35 pp 2Ch 32:21 pp Isa 37:36; Ac 5:19; 12:6-11

Angels as mediators
Ac 7:53 The law was mediated by angels to Moses and Israel See also Job 33:22-26; Ac 7:38; Gal 3:19; Heb 2:2

Angels as revealers of God’s will
Zec 1:8-10 See also Da 7:15-16; Zec 4:11-14; Rev 17:1; 21:9

Angels convey and fulfil God’s instructions Zec 3:4 See also Nu 22:21-35; Zec 3:6-7; Mt 2:13; Gal 1:8; Rev 7:2

Angels Attend to the Needs of God’s People


Angels provide food at special times 1Ki 19:5-7 See also Ps 78:23-25

Angels provide protection Ps 91:11-12 See also Ge 19:15; 48:16; Ps 34:7; Da 3:28; 6:22; Mt 18:10; Ac 27:23-24

Angels give guidance
Ex 23:20 See also Ge 24:7,40; Ac 8:26


Angels serve Jesus Christ

Angels care for Jesus Christ’s needs Mt 4:11 pp Mk 1:13 See also Lk 22:43

Angels are ready to protect Jesus Christ Mt 26:53 See also Mt 2:13,19-20; 4:6 pp Lk 4:10; Ps 91:11-12

Angels are inferior to Jesus Christ Heb 1:5-13


Angels, as God’s Messengers

Spiritual messengers with the special role of making known God’s work of salvation.

Angels give hope through the words of the prophets
Isa 40:3-5 The voice in this passage may be that of an angel.
Isaiah: Isa 40:1-2,6-8
Daniel: Da 8:15-16; 10:12,14-21; 12:8-13
Zechariah: Zec 1:12-21; 2:3-5; 4:1-7

Angels and the coming of the Messiah

An angel foretells the birth of John the Baptist Lk 1:11-13 See also Lk 1:14-19

Angels foretell Jesus Christ’s birth Mt 1:20-21 See also Lk 1:26-38

Angels announce Jesus Christ’s birth Lk 2:8-11 See also Lk 2:12-20

Angels announce Jesus Christ’s resurrection
Mt 28:5-7 pp Mk 16:5-7 See also Lk 24:4-7,23; Jn 20:10-14

Angels foretell Jesus Christ’s second coming
Ac 1:10-11

Angels reveal the gospel for the Gentiles
Ac 11:13 See also Ac 10:1-5,30-33; Rev 14:6-7

Angels foretell God’s final triumph
Rev 1:1 See also Rev 19:9; 22:1,6,16


Angels, as agents of God’s Judgment


Spiritual beings who assist God in carrying out his judgments. Angels will be especially active when Jesus Christ returns for the last judgment.

Angels as agents of earthly judgments
Ps 78:49

Against Sodom and Gomorrah See also Ge 19:13,24-25

Against opponents of God Ex 12:23; 2Ki 19:35 pp 2Ch 32:21 pp Isa 37:36; Ps 35:4-6

Against Israel Ex 32:35; 2Sa 24:16-17 pp 1Ch 21:15-16; 1Co 10:10

Against Herod Antipas Ac 12:18-23

Angels restrained by God’s mercy
1Ch 21:15-16 pp 2Sa 24:16-17 See also Ge 18:20-32

Angels and Final Judgment


Angels proclaim God’s sovereignty Rev 12:10-12 See also Rev 10:1-4; 11:15

Angels announce God’s final invitation Rev 14:6-7 See also Rev 14:9-13; 19:9

Angels hold back the final judgment Rev 7:1-3

Angels carry out preliminary warning judgments Rev 8:1-13; 9:1-16; 10:5-7

Angels accompany Jesus Christ when he returns to judge 2Th 1:7 See also Mt 16:27; 25:31; Mk 8:38 pp Lk 9:26; 1Th 3:13

Angels gather everyone for the final judgment Mt 13:37-41 See also Mt 13:49-50; 24:31; Rev 14:15-19

Angels announce the final judgment Rev 14:15 See also Rev 10:8-11; 17:1-3,7,15; 18:1-2,4

Angels enact the final judgment Rev 15:1 See also Rev 14:16-19; 15:6-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 19:17-18; 20:1-3

Angels are subject to judgment
1Co 6:3 See also 2Pe 2:4; Jude 6

It is clear that angels play an important role in the lives of believers and of the whole world itself. At every level angels are used of God for His purposes. In the end the most sobering thing may be that which Paul says, ‘Know ye not that we are to judge angels’. (1 Cor 6:3).

If we can accept that the fall of man was at the hand of an angel, as has every deception which has prevailed thereafter in any significant way, including Islam, then it may make sense to comprehend the justice of God in entrusting to the church the judgement of those beings which have so wickedly laid hold of mankind and destroyed that which God Himself loves.

Which is where I tend to agree with Just-In and why his position reflects a cautionary note. Personally I have seen angels on two occasions. Yet I would not in any way whatsoever encourage anyone to have a mind to communicate with angels directly. The idea that we can reject an angel when they bring a different gospel seems to point to some naiveté arising from the fact that Paul makes this assertion clearly. Angels who are intending to deceive are least likely to come with another gospel in recognition of that fact. Deception is by nature unknown, else it is not deception at all, but a deceiver. In short if we are deceived by intimate communications with angels then we will not even know it. If we are not deceived and yet promote and teach another gospel, obviously then we are become wicked ourselves.

Yet the scope and range of service to God and men which are carried out by angels is clearly very broad, albeit limited in its direct scope to men individually.

 2014/4/9 11:08









 Re:

Hi Solomon,

I went back to read the passage about Queenie and you are correct. I read it too quickly. The angel is playing with his dog. No, I do not have any axe to grind with Roland Buck or the Hunters or other teachers of angels. But, there is much to learn from their experiences that they have recorded on tape, CD and in books. Let's keep this about recognizing whether angels that are sent are either from God or not.

How far beyond scripture do you propose we can go when it comes to angels?
We see that God used Angels many times in the OT. From the Book of Acts to Jude, show me 10 occurrences where God used angels in the NT Church.

I propose that the entirety of scripture has been given to us as parameters. They are our boundaries, aren't they? And of course, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and will let us know if the spirit is a "bad angel".

Thank you for letting us know that you have read the book "Angels on Assignment". Obviously, it interested you because you have had many experiences with angels. Did you have these experiences before or after reading the book, and do you seek these experiences? I am asking because I think we are all interested in how you determine their authenticity as coming from God. How do you test the spirits?

Gal_1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Here is a principle that many take advantage of. The Roman Catholic Church, specifically takes advantage of this. We know that what is said in the Scriptures is very important and we are commanded not to take away from the Scriptures. We are also warned not to add to the Scriptures. The principle of which I speak is not what is said in the Scriptures but WHAT IS NOT SAID. The RCC has often taken the liberty to add to Scriptures by saying that "it is not specifically written against" and "it is a good thing". This is what I have seen being done in the non-RCC church world. Their experiences are adding to scriptures because contained in their experiences are subtle changes or additions or even omissions of Scripture.

We have to be cognizant of not only what is in the Bible, but what is NOT in the Bible.

1. Nothing is ever said about what they wear. But all of a sudden in the end-times we know what they wear and they seem to be pretty cool looking suits (appealing to the lust of the eyes).

2. Nothing is ever said about how tall they are. Again, modern experiences are appealing to the senses (pride of life).

3. We have been given two names in the Bible for angels. Gabriel and Michael. Not Moroni, Nephi, Chroni. Interestingly, these names all end in "i". Is "I" a suffix and what does it mean. Anyone know?

4. Mostly, I hear and read that Jesus Christ is appearing to people. There are many testimonies that He has appeared to Muslims and it is a well-known testimony that He appeared to Sadhu Sundar Singh. He used angels many times in the OT and He even appeared as the "Angel of the Lord", but in NT times, He appeared to Paul, and others. There are not that many occurrences of angels in the Early Church (NT), but their activity has exploded in the End Times. Just as prophesied and oftentimes these are not good angels.

5. We know Can bad angels can quote scripture? Matthew 4:6; 1 Timothy 4:1. That is why we should submit our experiences to elder brothers.

6. We know that bad angels can disguise themselves as good angels (angel of light). 2 Corinthians 11:14.

7. We know that Demons disguise themselves as servants of righteousness: 2 Corinthians 11:15.

8. We know they believe and fear God, so we should not be taken in by their quoting of scripture or talking about God in a reverential way. James 2 :19, 2 Peter 2:11.

7. We know bad angels can do miracles. 2 Thessalonians 2:9.

8. How do we know if they are bad?
As stated, bad angels will preach a different message than what is in the Bible: Galatians 1:8. Also, if you read all the occurrences of angels in the Bible their messages, proclaimations, instructions and commands given were simple and to the point. Truth is simple and pure devotion to Christ: 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

9. You will know them by their fruits: Mathew 7:15-20

10. Can we believe in lies? Yes. People trusted in lies in Jeremiah 28:15; 29:31.

11. Are bad angels active today? We are told they will deceive the elect if possible. Matthew 24:24 and bring false doctrines: Galatians 1:6-9.

12. Angels don't bring us new information today, because "the faith was once for all delivered" Jude 1:3 and "the whole purpose of God has been declared". Acts 20:27. "We have everything pertaining to life and godliness" 2 Peter 1:3.

AND THE BIGGEST REASON IS THAT GOD DWELLS WITH US and IN US BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT.

Solomon, how do you test these angels that come and visit you? You obviously have more experience than probably all of us combined, so I think we would like to know in light of the activity of "bad angels", how you verify and confirm they are from the Lord?

I have read all the instances of angels in the Bible, but it does not give me license to embellish them and imagine them in other ways to the point where I may start receiving visitations. I firmly believe anyone that receives several visitations from angels should submit those experiences to their local body. From your postings, and correct me if I am misunderstanding you, you seem to have received several visitations from angels. How many is several and have you submitted these visitation to you local body of brothers?

I stand by my 5 tests and all the scriptures I have given. And, I stand by what is not written to us as something to be wary of. One can only prove my list is not correct with their experiences, not with Scripture. Do you have any evidence from scripture that my 5 points are not scriptural or are you just relying on your experiences and imagination? We can certainly imagine that Angels sent from God can look like anything, wear anything, play with our dogs and cats, sit down and converse with us and even bring us energy drinks. These are all cool things and don't seem harmful on the surface, right? God cares about our health, our energy levels, our pets, so why can't we imagine good things from these angels? And if one starts actually having visitations from angels that are conducting themselves in this fashion, then it only solidifies one's imaginings. I am not saying this is not reality and people are not receiving visitations.

I hope I have been able to communicate to you my thought process on this matter and where I am coming from.

Blessings to you, too.

 2014/4/9 11:12
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 701
San Diego

 Re: A spirit/ angel ponder

2 Chronicles 18:19-22 NKJV
[19] And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. [20] Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.' The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' [21] So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.' [22] Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”

A fascinating story from scripture that challenges my comprehension of how God operates in the realm beyond my vision.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/4/9 11:26Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by amrkelly on 2014/4/9 11:08:57

Angels, as God’s Servants

Yet the scope and range of service to God and men which are carried out by angels is clearly very broad, albeit limited in its direct scope to men individually.



Amen, to that Andrew and thank you for that great list of scriptures.

It is important to discern what doctrines their message(s) leave out. Especially, if they are visiting you on numerous times. Are they leaving out the Cenrality of Christ and Sanctification. And are they constantly appealing to your senses and to things that put you in "awe" of THEM?

But, right off the bat, I would be alarmed with one visit, let alone many visits. The fact that I would be alarmed at one visit would not mean I was rejecting them. But, I don't ever want to become "comfortable" with them. The Holy Spirit has a way of giving me peace if a friend is nearby or rising up inside me if a foe is present. We must learn to trust and rely on the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

 2014/4/9 12:02
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7421
Mississippi

 Re:

QUOTE:
_____________________________________________________________
Does anyone else whose memory reaches that far back remember any similarly significant events from the spring of '83?
_____________________________________________________________


I moved in different church circles then mainstream Christianity. Although that was the case, we were not left untouched by what was going on then.

The church leaders were very concerned about the impact the Charismatic movement had on their people. Some Charismatic leaders were very overt in their promotion and others more subtle.

There was Bob Mumford, Derek Prince et al who published "New Wine" detailing the latest insights into scripture. A little later I heard Bill Gotherd touting similar principles that "New Wine" was teaching. What Gotherd said came right near to being the gospel truth as far as the Mennonite church was concerned.

The Charismatic movement promised new sensational experiences that proved very attractive to those caught in dead legalism. They swallowed it hook, line and sinker. With it all caution was thrown to the winds because experience trumped Biblical truth.

It was during this time that Rosalind Rinker's writings rose to dominance. She emphasized "love" in very attractive ways. "Christianity Today" magazine in their surveys have found that she ranks among the most influential writers among Christians in the 20 century.

Rinker's writings had a sweet quality about themselves. I loved her book - forget the title. A ladies group I belonged to then studied it. (She wrote more then one book.) Years later CT reported that she was the darling of the Gay/Lesbian community! Indeed she was/is! I did my own online search and found this to be true. I fervently believe this paved the way for Christians to be more accepting of people who lived in overt sin without being 'judgmental'.

It was about this time where the practice of calling out sin was consider to be judgmental. It was also during this time when we were told that the word "fear" in the scriptures does not mean fear but love. When you redefine this word you will destroy a person's fear of the end time judgement among other important Truths. In other words God becomes like a cute teddy bear, all sweet and cuddly - like my cat.

This is my take as I recall events from that era. It did not happen overnight but was a gradual process.

I learned a lot from that. The main lesson is the danger in following popular, or otherwise, speakers, writers, preachers. Today, I rarely will read a book by a contemporary writer dealing with theological writings. Instead, I concentrate on the WORD. Presently,I am concentrating on the OT prophets. I know so little about them I think it is shameful to ignore them but at the same time know in detail what Mr. So-and-So has to say. AND...one does not have to fear about being mislead when you focus on the WORD. God opens one's understanding of the message included therein which gives me immense delight and joy. (My testimony.)

Anyhow, this is what I remember - been around a few years - born in 1947 - not quite a dinosaur, yet...

God bless!


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2014/4/10 9:23Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7421
Mississippi

 Re:

I was going to edit my last post but decided to write another one instead.

My religious heritage is Mennonite. I deeply appreciate the blessings it afforded me. It did not save me nor will it anybody else. It just is a blessing in that it provided me with rich opportunities to learn the WORD because it was highly esteemed by its leaders, teachers. I still am a part albeit a small Alliance...and the reason is that we need mutual encouragement to remain faithful. Just said this to help you know where I am coming from.

The Charismatic movement had a huge impact on the Mennonite Church. Like I said it trumped experience over Biblical truth. What was once dearly held as absolute was now questioned. Having said that, I am also aware the Charismatic movement made us aware of things we were not aware of but needed to know. Indeed, it was/is a time of eating the meat and spitting out the bones.

I suggest that it was during this time which came on the heels of the hippie movement where the younger peoples rejection of the elders insights were challenged and given credibility. They worked hand-in-glove. They fit perfectly.

Younger people - my generation - got very educated, learned how to use logic, exploring new ideas, giving them credibility and promoting them as worthwhile subjects to be studied. Consider:

When I was in Bible School I took the class "Group Dynamics in Evangelism". It was taught by a sociology student who was studying at a secular university. He was also a preacher. In this class we learned about mental telepathy, hypnosis and its value in persuading others in evangelism, that it was a worthwhile tool to be utilized. He told us they know it works but did not know why. Later, this man became the president of a major Mennonite College. (To the Bible Schools credit he never did teach there since nor was this class ever taught again. Never learned why. If I remember I will ask if I meet the right person.)

This was my personal experience. While it may have been unusual, its spirit is more subtle in other ways, not as overt. But the devil will take his time - he knows what he is dealing with. Some folks are more gullible then others and he knows this.

Understand what I am saying? New ideas explored, not questioned but pursued.

I suspect what happened in the Mennonite church was repeated all over the country in many different forms because the devil was behind it all. He will use whatever is at hand to wreck havoc.

My observation from my place on this planet.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2014/4/10 9:50Profile





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