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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : R.C. Sproul on watching the Middle East

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budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re:

When Jesus arose from the grave his disciples asked Jesus in words to the effect of will you now begin to reign as king in Jerusalem that the godly kingdom may be restored
Jesus reply was that day is up to God
The word says that Jesus must stay in heaven until the kingdom again is restored in Israel
Jesus is prophecies as the king of the Jews
The lion of the tribe of Judah
The king of kings
When he comes at the day of resurrection he will be the king and will reign for 1000 years of rest of sabbath
Satan will be bound
Every knee will now
He will fulfil all his kingly prophecies
God loves the land of Israel
It is where it all first began
Jesus is king

 2014/5/9 22:53Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Reply for TMK on Israel's resoration

You wrote,

"I have no agenda on this topic."

"I am just wondering what you mean when you say the restoration of national Israel and by what means that will occur. In other words what do you mean by restored? Do you mean that all Jews will bow the knee to Jesus as Lord and savior and Messiah?"

Me: In my last sentence I wrote,

"Acknowldeging the cross and the risen Christ will be at the heart of the restoration."

I mean first of all the spiritual regeneration by faith in Christ of a elect remnant of ethnic Israel. The remnant of Israel is spoken of about 40 times in scripture and most of those instances are set in a eschatological context. So along with a spiritual restoration in Christ I also believe in the restoration of the physical nation of Israel to the physical borders promised it in the scriptures. I don't share the view that land is somehow unspiritual and demeans the meaning and nature of the kingdom. In my opinion that's contrary to the Hebrew world view in which the scriptures were penned and in which the spiritual and the physical are easily combined. But the spiritual will be of preeminent and paramount importance.

You asked by what means this will occur. In that regard, my view is that Daniel spoke of a time of trouble and distress to come to his people that would exceed anything that came before it (Daniel 12:1) and Jesus echoed this view in Matthew 24:21. I see this as the time when God's final judgments are poured out upon the earth for its increasing and gross iniquity but also the time when God will be gathering the eschatological remnant of Israel and grafting them back in. Not all of this gathering will be in the physical nation of Israel. I believe much will be happening in the nations also as a burgeoning number of the natural branches become believers in Christ. Yet the time of final tribulation before the coming of the son of man will serve to strip and shatter the power of Israel (Daniel 12:7) and bring them to the end of their own presumption and strength. When they have nothing else to rely upon then they will be ready to come to the table with nothing but faith just as all other believers have been required to do. I believe that from Israel Christ ascended on high and to that to Israel He will return and at that time they will "look on Him whom they pierced" and enter into great repentance (Zechariah 12:10-14) and from that day forward among the surviviors of Israel (Zechariah 13:8, Isaiah 4:2-3) there will not be one who doesn't know the Lord (Jer 31:34). From that time forward, "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring, says the Lord, "From now and forever." (Isaiah 59:20-21). Being premillennial, I believe Israel will be in Christ and will never backslide again and the oppression of hostile Gentile powers will have been forever broken off of them allowing the nation to dwell in unmolested safety and be a millennial blessing to the entire earth.

14 - And I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities (destroyed during the tribulation?) and live in them. they will also plant vineyards and dring their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit.

15 - I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them," says the Lord your God. (Amos 9:14-15)

1 - "For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem

2 - I will gather all the nations, and bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgement with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My land. (Joel 3:1-2)

At the time of the restoration of the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem the issue will be God entering into judgement against the nations because of they scattered Israel among the nations and "divided up My land." So a land conflict is at center stage at the end of the age. First though, just as the prophets predicted, the issue of Jerusalem and Israel will become a cup of reeling and a heavy stone to the nations (Zech 12:2-3) and will be a international crisis that will continue to grow and increasingly threaten world stability. If all these things supposedly happened in the days of Christ why have we come full circle and are facing the same situation again as Israel is once again surrounded by hostile armies and powers intent on wresting the land and Jerusalem away from Jewish ownership? If all these things happened in the days of Christ then when did the son of Man come again because scripture and the Olivet Discourse portray these things as culminating in the second advent of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. It's safe to say that the dead have not been resurrected so it's naturally safe to say the Son of Man has not come again because when He comes again He will resurrect the righteous dead. Simple. The belief He already came again in judgment on the clouds with great glory simply doesn't hold water since the second coming the Olivet Discourse ends in brings with it the resurrection of the dead. The dead were not resurrected in 70 A.D.

You wrote,

"There is an element of believers who think that God will sanction the reinstitution of animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple. THAT is what I have a major problem with."

That is a fair statement and one that needs to be discussed and dealt with in a civil climate. I'm familar with the belief and the controversy and the arguments. It can be perplexing and is one of the more difficult portions of scripture to deal with even though it's not an essential for salvation. In this regard, which scriptures and set of passages do you see that this element of believers uses to support this view? Which ones would you pinpoint as those they use?





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David Winter

 2014/5/10 10:24Profile





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